Episode 432: Joe Doyle (Over-Slot) + Has This Series With The Reds Shown Us Anything?

00:00:00 Speaker 1: What's up, guys. Just a reminder that we're now less than one week away from our next Mariner's Live event and we cannot wait to see you there. It's on Tuesday, July the twenty eighth at six pm over with our friends at the Emerald Queen Casino. So for those of you in the South Sound area, for those of you in the Seattle area that just want to make the trip over, we cannot wait to see you there because we're gonna be doing a Mariner's Trivia Night and we're going to watch the Mariners Dodgers game with you guys. 00:00:26 Speaker 2: At the conclusion of the trivia night. So we're gonna have. 00:00:28 Speaker 1: A bunch of fun prizes to give away, questions for you to answer, will be interacting with you guys throughout the night. 00:00:34 Speaker 2: It is a blast. 00:00:35 Speaker 1: The last one was a blast, and we cannot wait for this one too, So market on your calendars if you haven't done so already six pm this upcoming Tuesday, July the twenty eighth at the Emerald Queen Casino for a Mariner's Trivia Night and Mariner's Watch party. 00:00:48 Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you there. 00:00:49 Speaker 1: Oh. 00:00:50 Speaker 3: Episode number four thirty two of the Marine Layer Podcast. We welcome on our friend Joe Doyle from the Overslot to talk about the Mariner's twenty twenty six draft. We'll also react the Mariners splitting the first two games against the Cincinnati Reds, and your guys. 00:01:04 Speaker 1: Reminder, just do us a couple things before we start this podcast. Go download these episodes, make sure you leave that five star review on the audio platforms. Make sure you hit subscribe on YouTube. You can also find us at our website, which is marinelayerpod dot com. You'll find everything there, episodes, podcast merch, Go get yourself some Patreon It's all over there marine layerpod dot com, and find us across social media. We're posting content everywhere every single day at Marine Layer Pod. 00:01:32 Speaker 3: Let's get it rolling and welcome you to this episode of the Marine Layer Podcast, part of the Just Baseball podcast network, recording here on Tuesday evening, July twenty first, and Lyle, we've really gotten everything in this Red series is so far. 00:02:02 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:02:02 Speaker 1: And because we've gotten everything, I would analyze the first two games with eh. I mean, Monday was great. Monday showed a lot of life, and then Tuesday was a lot of the same things we just talk about over and over. So pick whichever side of the coin you want. If you're somebody that wants to focus more on Monday and looking at Cow's swing and Cow's Grand Slam as a potential spark plug, sure it is possible if you'd rather look at Tuesday and say, oh, look at all the same mistakes come into life. 00:02:33 Speaker 2: Also totally fair to look at that. 00:02:36 Speaker 3: What don't we talk about some positive first? I will say I liked I've liked Cow's approach of the plate the first two games. The swing was huge. I did think he'd put the Mariners in a pretty good spot in a very similar situation here on Tuesday, where it ended up drawing a walk, but the Mariners, just shockingly, as they are terrible with runners in scoring position, couldn't drive him in after the Reds walked the bases loaded, I think in the seventh inning tonight, trying to give the Maritors an opportunity to win, given how terrible the Reds bullpen were, but they unfortunately couldn't get that done. That swing he had on Monday, though, that was pretty good and the Reds I don't know what the Reds were doing on Monday night lyle it was. It kind of made sense, but I don't know. 00:03:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the reasoning Francota put out there Terry Francona was they wanted to avoid having Canzone hit against the lefty, and Canzone in a small sample really has hit lefties. But even for as much as Cal struggled this year, I don't really know if I'd walked the bases loaded for Cal Raleigh and then throw him that pitch, Well, the pitch in the execution is where you run into all the problems, because I mean Caleb Ferguson essentially asked Cal to hit that to the next county with the pitch that he left up that. 00:04:01 Speaker 3: Looked like Seattle Mariners. 00:04:03 Speaker 1: Caleb Ferguson, Yeah who, By the way, then just continued to put himself in the news as he's essentially calling an umpire later in the inning a fat fuck to get out of the way. 00:04:14 Speaker 2: Like, I mean, everything night for Caleb, I mean everything that. 00:04:19 Speaker 1: Drove people nuts about Caleb Ferguson and his short stint as a Mariner seemed to really come to life in that outing. 00:04:25 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll dub that pitch from Caleb Ferguson the worst pitch of the twenty twenty six MLB season. You have a guy in Cal Rawley who's just really struggled. He has struggled at pitches up in the zone, he struggled at pitches down in the zone. He's chasing and expanding more than he ever has in his career. And Caleb Ferguson throws him a seventy eight mile an hour meatball right down the middle with the bases loaded. 00:04:51 Speaker 2: M hmm, yeah, I kind. 00:04:53 Speaker 3: Of thrown that pitch anywhere else and he threw it there. 00:04:57 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, not great, not great at all. 00:05:01 Speaker 3: I really hope that's the pitch that turns around Cal Raley season this year. Like Caleb Ferguson's like, all right, I'm sick and tired of watching Cal struggle. I might as well just take one for the team here and help him out a little bit and get him back on track. Now, we didn't get two straight days of Cal home runs, unfortunately. Have we even gotten two straight days of Cal home runs yet this year? 00:05:21 Speaker 2: I don't think so. 00:05:22 Speaker 3: I mean he hasn't had a one time no, I mean. 00:05:24 Speaker 2: He hasn't hit enough of them he's had. 00:05:26 Speaker 3: I mean, that was what his we's sitting at ten right now. I'm gonna pull up his game logs. Let's see. 00:05:33 Speaker 1: No, I'm pretty sure he has not had back to back days with a home run. 00:05:36 Speaker 3: Well, I was hoping Caleb Ferguson was gonna bless us and have have Cal Raley hit home runs back to back days. Well, actually, dog, no, he's hit three home home runs in three straight games this year. 00:05:48 Speaker 2: Once was that when he was starting to find his rhythm before he got hurt again. 00:05:53 Speaker 3: We did it in all three games in or sorry at home against the A's, and that was it at that point in time, late April. 00:06:02 Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds about the point where he would look like he was starting to figure something out, but then he got hurt shortly after that. 00:06:07 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, it's been three months since that point exactly. 00:06:11 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:06:12 Speaker 2: Wait, oh late April. 00:06:14 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the April twenty first, twenty second, twenty third, Yeah. 00:06:18 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. Look, Cal walked twice on Tuesday, so there are some at bats that are looking a lot better, as timing seems to be a little bit more on he's working counts. He also had in a bat or two on Tuesday that didn't look as great. But I let's hope that look at let's hope that looking at the positive here, this can spark Cal a little bit, because I mean, we're just gonna continue to say it. 00:06:46 Speaker 2: And it's true. 00:06:46 Speaker 1: Cal doesn't get going like they're not going to the playoffs. It's that simple. 00:06:51 Speaker 3: It doesn't really matter what you do with the deadline as well, because no one you're gonna trade for at this deadline that's actually available to trade makes the kind of impact that Cal Rawley does. 00:07:01 Speaker 2: No, it's that simple. 00:07:02 Speaker 3: I know people were getting really frustrated with Jerry Depoto when he sat down with Adam Jude and said that. And you can I roll a little bit at the sentiment where it's like the best players we can acquire are currently on our team. But Jerry's right, that's it Like Hot Julio and Col are significantly better than Taylor Ward, and that's Taylor Ward's a best case scenario for what you acquire. 00:07:24 Speaker 2: Two things are true in general. 00:07:26 Speaker 1: This is not just a Mariner's thing, although Jerry has said it his fair share of times and his tenure here, but it's true for all gms across Major League Baseball. When you spin to your fan base the words of we view getting player X back from injury as a trade deadline acquisition. I mean, it just makes my blood absolutely boil because it's a cop it's a cop out answer. 00:07:49 Speaker 2: It is it's here's an excuse for why we didn't add. 00:07:52 Speaker 1: All that being said, you were right, and Jerry is right in this scenario that because of the current state of the trademark market and the guys that will and will not be available, he is right that there's nobody that's going to make the impact that getting Call and Julio going would make. There's no nailers on this market. There's no genos on this market. The solution is going to come internally or it's not gonna come at all. You can have players like you can still add and they should still add players that will help this roster. 00:08:22 Speaker 2: But the only true changes, the only true, truly like, the only true. 00:08:26 Speaker 1: Difference makers post deadline that this team will have is Callan Julio getting hot. If those guys don't truly both of them don't truly get hot, yeah, you're probably not making the playoffs. 00:08:37 Speaker 3: Let's walk through that decision for a minute here. That led to cal Rowly hitting that Grand Slam because it is a study into whether or not you look at the numbers or you're looking at handiness. So if you're only looking at handiness, the Reds brought a lefty in to intentionally walk a lefty and pinch to a switch hitter who's hitting righty. If you look at the numbers, you would notice that Dom can Zone in about thirty five played appearances against lefties this season. I think it's thirty five, maybe it's more than that, has a nine to ten OPS against lefties this year, which is really good. On the other side, Cal Rawley when facing lefties this year has an OPS of four sixty So like it doesn't look right with the eye test. Technically, the Reds made the right decision by the numbers, but that is a scenario where you can lean away from the numbers when it doesn't really feel right. Dude, dilay that out right. 00:09:42 Speaker 1: I get what you're saying, and I'm sure people listening get what you're saying. But yeah, Cal's got a four to sixty two OPS against left handed pitching this year. 00:09:49 Speaker 2: It's been a struggle for him. 00:09:51 Speaker 1: And I would say this because Terry Francona I don't know if you guys all saw or if you saw tech, but he did say on Tuesday, look, I'd do it again. And there will be people that don't agree with him on that, and I get it, because again, loading the bases in general for cal Raley seems like an odd move when can Zone does not have a long history of success against lefties, though he's now showing a short. 00:10:13 Speaker 2: History of success. 00:10:14 Speaker 1: But all that being said by Francona saying I do it again, that means that he is a manager, and a manager that's clearly had a lot of success in his big league career, which he has where he says, this is my process and it's not gonna work every time, but I'm sticking to it. 00:10:31 Speaker 2: He is conviction in his process. 00:10:33 Speaker 1: It didn't work in that scenario, but he clearly had a process and a conviction. There's a certain manager across the dugout who doesn't seem to have a lot of conviction in his decisions, and we can get to that in a couple minutes. But I do give Tito credit for that. While it certainly made some people scratch their heads for every good reason and that one did not work, he has a conviction behind his decisions. He explains it, and he sticks to it. 00:11:00 Speaker 3: Someone was joking to us today at the ballpark that that is the kind of decision an AI bot would make in a baseball game. So, because there was the story this week about MLB cracking down on teams using AI in the dugout to help themselves, and someone came up to us today and we were talking about that decision and was kind of joking like, yeah, you know, because you obviously don't have total control over it. It's something completely different from your own brain thinking and making this decision. It's like, yeah, it doesn't really make much sense if you look at it like on the eyeballs and you kind of have to dive into the numbers to see, you how did it come to this decision? 00:11:39 Speaker 2: Right? 00:11:40 Speaker 1: And again there was there was a process behind the decision. So I think I think both sides have an argument to this one. To be honest, it is totally fine and totally warranted. If you're gonna scratch your head and say, why in the world would they set that up for cal Raley, But there's also some numbers that back that up. 00:11:57 Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, so let's talk about some of the other in this Red series before we get to a fantastic conversation with Joe Doyle where we talk about Ace Rees, Jake Brown and many others. Acees at the ballpark today at Timobi Park here on Tuesday along with Lyle. Who's he with? 00:12:14 Speaker 1: Oh, he was with Scottie. He was with Scott Boris. Second summer in a row. He's made the trip out to Tamobile Park. 00:12:20 Speaker 3: I'll say he's got a recurring flight booked for his clients when they signed in Seattle. 00:12:25 Speaker 1: Well, he doesn't make many other trips out And I'm sure Scott Boris travels to other parks. 00:12:29 Speaker 2: During the year, but he doesn't get to say outtle that much. 00:12:33 Speaker 3: Low and I knew Kate Anderson last year was a Scott Boris guy. Wow, we had no idea. 00:12:38 Speaker 1: I thought we did now, not till we walked into that room for the presser and we saw. 00:12:43 Speaker 2: His name tag and we're like, oh, I thought we did. 00:12:46 Speaker 1: We walked into the room, we were fired up and elated about the Kate Anderson pick. Still we look up at the at the front of the room, we see a Scott Boris name tag. Then we look at each other and say, oh, well, when his service clocks starts, let's enjoy the six years and then he's gone. 00:13:05 Speaker 3: So you can imagine Laala and I's surprise today when we walked into the ballpark and we see this guy in a green suit jacket walking around, standing on the warning track and talking. He's like, oh, he's back. 00:13:18 Speaker 2: He's back. 00:13:22 Speaker 3: So anyways, we talked about Ace Reese and many others in the Maritor's draft class with Joe Doyle. I mean, we'll get to it in a little bit. 00:13:28 Speaker 2: We will get to it in a little bit. 00:13:30 Speaker 1: And also a little transparency again, people are interested in the peek behind the curtains. We actually met Scott Boris for the first time today, Like we actually went and said what's up briefly, I mean, if you'll want more further transparency, we've kind of we've kind of put some feelers out there about if you'd ever want to get on the Bullpen Banner channel with us and do some baseball trivia. And I will say not a total no. 00:13:56 Speaker 3: It's not a no. Yeah that's important. It's not a no. 00:13:58 Speaker 1: Like like like put potential potential progress being made. It's not gonna it's not gonna happen tomorrow, but there's been some progress made. 00:14:08 Speaker 2: I like, listen, you can feel how you want. 00:14:10 Speaker 1: About him, But I think that would be a pretty interesting person to do baseball trivia with. 00:14:14 Speaker 3: Definitely knows his baseball, that's for sure. 00:14:16 Speaker 1: Yeah, and likes and likes to talk, which makes him a perfect person for the channel. 00:14:20 Speaker 3: He did a lot of talking today, well, and I were standing and observing he was doing a lot of talking. 00:14:25 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:14:26 Speaker 1: If I mean, if we had caught him earlier in the day, maybe there would have been more than a conversation. But we caught him right at the end as he's starting to wrap up for a minute or two. Hell, if we had actually gotten into a full fledged conversation. We joke that be like, hey man, I'm looking forward to the twenty thirty. 00:14:41 Speaker 2: Four Winter meetings. 00:14:43 Speaker 1: When you have your press conference as Ace Reese hits free agency and you say, listen, the only more valuable hand in a deck than a king is an ace. As Ace Reese has hit sets a hit free agency and make money. 00:14:57 Speaker 3: Did all these teams, all these teams want to want a king for their castle. But the only thing better than a king, it's an ace. 00:15:04 Speaker 1: Yeah, that quote will be said in the next eight to ten years. 00:15:08 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, let's get to Let's get to these other things before we get to Joe. The starting pitching decisions in this Red Series were a little puzzling, to say the least. So George Kirby is rolling along on Monday, gets to eighty pitches through six innings. Dan Wilson decides to take George Kirby out at eighty pitches and then they go to Nick Davila with a one nothing lead for the Mariners in that moment. Of course, the Mariners end up hang on and winning. Davila gets himself out of some trouble in the seventh inning, but it was kind of puzzling, to say the least, to see George Kirby get yanked that early. Then the Mariners go to Luis Castillo tonight and they let Louis pitch to one hundred pitches into the seventh inning and the Mariners okay, and then the okay. So then the order after that was then Farrer and then Rutgery have that right. 00:16:01 Speaker 1: Which I mean, first off, look at this face. Does this face look like somebody. 00:16:06 Speaker 3: I was looking at my camera and not my screen. I didn't I didn't see that the scowl on Miles face as I'm talking through Dan Wilson decisions. 00:16:13 Speaker 1: Does this look like a face of somebody that was pleased or impressed with the full pen decisions over the last couple days. 00:16:21 Speaker 2: No, I'm gonna go with no. 00:16:22 Speaker 3: I would say we were both equally confused on both days. The Kirby one had me a little bit more confused, given that they're talking about they need to get these guys more rest, which is fine, So they go to a six man rotation. George Kirby, I believe, if I have it right, pitched once in the last one other time in the last three weeks, but they pulled him at eighty pitches after six innings. 00:16:49 Speaker 1: So let's start with the Kirby decision, and I'll preface it with this. Ultimately, it doesn't matter for that game specifically, because the offense ended up just coming alive late and they won by a lot and cal Raley hit the Grand Slam, and that's great. We're gonna get to the overall theme of this team a little bit later, which is, I mean, i'll preview it here now for a second, which is, you can do whatever you want against the Giants and the Reds. You win both of these series, awesome, you're winning games and telling it to your win total. But what you do against last place teams isn't gonna be what defines your season. You've got some really important games coming up that you're gonna have to play a lot better than this and have a much sound, much more sound decision making process than this. 00:17:36 Speaker 2: And it boils down to this again. 00:17:38 Speaker 1: Between Monday, despite winning, and between Tuesday, which we'll get to in a minute, the overall process is still a massive problem and is making my head explode. It doesn't make any sense, and parlayed with there are still no answers given to any of it, not actual answers. 00:17:56 Speaker 2: George Kirkby on. 00:17:57 Speaker 1: Monday, to your point, is pulled at eighty pitches after having one start in three weeks, and paired with the fact that having Spire and Bizardo down on Monday, having thrown back to back days, you have got to cover innings, man, You've got to cover innings throughout those nine innings, and all of a sudden he's yanked at eighty pitches with two leverage relievers down, and then you have to go to the guys at the back of your bullpen in the seventh and eighth and ninth inning in a situation that at the start of that whole thing, the game was close. Credit in the world to the offense because they put it out of hand. But to start that whole process, you're deciding that a starter at eighty pitches is just done so you can go to the back of your bullpen with leverage arms down. How does that make any sense? And it doesn't make any sense. And when you're running a six man rotation, which they are still deciding to do, by the way, because they won't make a definitive decision about anybody in this rota because clearly it seems like they want to trade somebody. Then while you're running the six man rotation, you have got to get length out of your starters. 00:19:10 Speaker 2: And your starter in Kirby, was at eighty pitches. Why is he being yanked? 00:19:18 Speaker 3: I don't know. That doesn't make There's two options. Either the team was trying to rest him, which I guess I would just disagree with given that it's late July. They just had the All Star break and we're not even in Like the dog days, yet the dog days are late August, right when the season is really grinding on. In your game one hundred and twenty, one hundred and thirty, one hundred and forty and you see the finish line but you're not quite there yet, and knowing that you already get an extra day more of rest in this rotation than you would get in any other rotation, that strategy doesn't really make sense, Like you don't get to I don't think you get to run a six man rotation and try and pull your pitchers out of games early because those two combinations don't work. You do need to get some extra outs when your starters when you can, because that's how your pitching staff is set up. Or on the other side, if like Kirby needs rest for some reason, then like I don't know what else to say, like how how can you need rest at eighty pitches? 00:20:21 Speaker 1: So it's like it's one of those two when you haven't thrown in many games in the last three weeks, and it could be a rous thing. But I would also counter that and say, are you not throwing bullpens during the All Star break? Or you're not getting your work in? Are you're not getting your throwing in. Bryce Miller posted on his Instagram story over the All Star break of him throwing his bullpen over at the ballpark, like, are you not still getting your ramp up? 00:20:46 Speaker 3: I'm sure he is. 00:20:47 Speaker 1: Sure he is, Yeah right, I'm sure he is too. I'm just putting the questions out there. I'm sure Kirby is putting in the work and getting his work in and getting his bullpens in. But if that's what's happening, why in the world he need to be yanked at eighty pitches? And yes we are. We are really harping on a situation in a game that they ultimately won by a lot. But this is why we keep talking about this, because you're gonna have games that are much more important and much more high leverage than a Monday game against the Reds. When you play the Rangers, and you play the Dodgers, and you play the Rays, and you play all these teams coming up on your schedule down the stretch. Your process has to be way better than this. It's not good enough. It's still not good enough. And we've been saying it for two years. It's not good enough. 00:21:29 Speaker 3: It's and then it and then. 00:21:30 Speaker 2: You parlay it to Tuesday. 00:21:32 Speaker 3: Well wait, well let's let's let's let's finish. Let's finish up Monday here really quick, because this is how the situation lays out, and a game that the Mariners won, knowing your bullpen is down, your options are pitching George Kirby from eighty to one hundred pitches in the seventh inning with a bullpen with two maybe three leverage arms down because Munnos had also pitched in two games in a row at that point, or having Nick Davula pitch with a one run lead. Those are your two options. I feel like to me, it's a pretty clear option. We're not always the highest guys on George Kirby, but that one's pretty clear to me. 00:22:07 Speaker 2: Pretty easy, yes, George Kirby. 00:22:10 Speaker 1: And if there's something wrong, either something's gonna come out in the next few days or as usual, there will be no explanation given by Dan Wilson for why he did what he did right. 00:22:24 Speaker 3: Correct, Okay, so that's Monday, now Tuesday. 00:22:27 Speaker 2: Then Tuesday. 00:22:28 Speaker 1: You're in a similar situation where Luis Casillo also hasn't made his first start out of the All Star Break, but magically he's working into the seventh inning and is throwing like one hundred pitches. 00:22:41 Speaker 2: What's the difference? 00:22:43 Speaker 1: That would be my question, which again I'm sure Dan won't answer, But why can Kirby only go eighty making his first start out of the All Star break, but Luis can go one hundred making his first start out of the All Star Break? 00:22:59 Speaker 3: So great question. But also you and I know that's not really the storyline here. The story no, but how they approached after Louise. 00:23:07 Speaker 1: Well, sure, and we're about to get to that. But yeah, Kirby and Luis tie into this here because even before all the ridiculous bullpen decisions that went down on Tuesday, there is a comparing contrast here that doesn't make any sense. With your two starters over the last two days. Why can one go eighty pitches and the other can? I mean they made roughly the same amount of starts this year. Luis Castillo as a whole through one hundred and one pitches on Tuesday, like with a. 00:23:34 Speaker 3: More arrested bullpen, by the way, in a closer game than what they were experiencing on Monday. 00:23:40 Speaker 1: So again, we are talking about all this because a few wins against the Giants and Reds ultimately is not the end all be all. 00:23:49 Speaker 2: I hope it sparks something. 00:23:50 Speaker 1: I hope Cole young swing against the Giants or Cal's swing against the Reds does spark a real wind streak. But like your process, just like this can't continue. I don't know how many times we have to. We've got to say this can't continue. But it has to be better than this. And it's not. 00:24:07 Speaker 3: To wrap up Tuesday on what the the issue was the process with a rested bullpen, because all non leverage guys pitched on Monday. The Mariners had were trailing by one single run in the ninth inning. Ultimately, the offense didn't score enough runs to put them ahead, but the Mariners had a more rested bullpen. They went to a leverage arm in Jose Ferrera right after Luis Castill came out well, the Mariners were down two runs. But then when after the Mariners get a run back on Julio Rodriguez coming in off the bench. By the way, it's just the weirdest thing ever hitting a home run to make it a one run game. The Mariners end up with Michael Rucker pitching the ninth inning in a one run game with a arrested bullpen. 00:24:55 Speaker 1: Yeah, so just to add some context to that, start to go to leverage, arms down two and when you go to Ferrer in the eighth, you're saying to yourself, Okay, the Mariners know the Reds have a weak bullpen. They think they can get to them. They got Chase Burns out of the game. They have confidence they can claw their way back into this. And Frer did his job Fred and give up a run. He kept the game at a two run Reds lead. Then Julio comes in and ties it and makes it a one run game, and you think to yourself, Okay, they're trying to go for this one. They're not punting this game. They're going for it. Because they went to Ferrer, Spire and Bizardo both didn't pitch on Monday. You have options now going into the ninth inning to try and capitalize on this. Until magically you've gone from Jose Ferrera to Michael Rucker who comes in in the ninth inning and gives up a home run. What like, how how in the world do you go from Ferrer to cut the lead to one to Michael Rucker After Bizarto Inspire did not pitch what like, seriously, what what is happening? 00:26:01 Speaker 3: Is just time for Michael Rutger to pitch? 00:26:04 Speaker 2: Good lord? 00:26:05 Speaker 3: I mean, by the way, the Mariners don't need to save their bullpen arms for a long like fifteen game in a row stretch. They have Thursday off, well, They'll play on Wednesday Tomorrow afternoon and then have Thursday off well. 00:26:23 Speaker 1: And that's what makes no sense because the Dan quote after the game asking about this was as follows. Here, I'm gonna pull it up just to make sure i get the right quote word for word, because it was tweeted out after the game. Here's his reasoning for doing what he did with the whole Rucker in the ninth inning situation. He said, we've got a quick turnaround again tomorrow, so you've got away all your options there. And Rucker did throw the ball extremely well last night. You have an off day on Thursday. What is a quick turnaround the next day matter? If you have leverage bullpen arms rested from the night before, are you trying to win that game or not? Because by going to Ferrera in the eighth inning, you are signaling that you are, and then magically you go to Rucker in the ninth. 00:27:09 Speaker 3: Unless Michael Rucker got some promotion to a leverage roll, which I don't see. He's got an ERA over five. I mean, there's nothing there that would suggest he's a lever darm at all. 00:27:22 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:27:22 Speaker 1: And by the way, when he threw on Monday. In Monday's game, he threw the ninth inning, they were up eight, nothing like, like, what do I care if Michael Rucker threw the ball well and it ate nothing game to then let him pitch in a one run game on back to back days in the ninth when you have an off day on Thursday. 00:27:41 Speaker 2: Seriously, I mean, like, these these things that happen. 00:27:43 Speaker 3: Are just mind boggling. 00:27:45 Speaker 1: They truly are, and it makes you think you're the crazy one when you watch these things unfold, when in reality, it's like like like we have been baseball fans our whole life. We have watched the game, and we we got like we invest our time and effort to learning the game and knowing the game as well as we possibly can as fans. And I'm sorry, but like there is I'm sorry. I will not divvy away from this. I will not like I will not sit here and say wait, no, I'm the crazy one, like, we're wrong. 00:28:16 Speaker 2: No, Like you see Michael Rucker. 00:28:18 Speaker 1: Coming the game in a one run game after using for rare and you sit there and have your jaw on the floor. You're not crazy for thinking that. You're totally valid for thinking what the hell is going on? And then there's no explanation given. Oh there's there's we have a quick turnaround. We have a day game the next day. So like, so what, like you you just rested Bizardo and Spire for a day. Why aren't they good to throw on back to back days with an off day on Thursday. 00:28:46 Speaker 4: Now it's a great question, Lyle. I mean wish I had the answer for you. I mean, it just it just drives me nuts. I like, I don't get it. And then there's never explanations get. 00:29:00 Speaker 3: Then no, no, no, there's not. 00:29:04 Speaker 1: Let me say it again. The process has to be better than this or or it's just not going to matter simply to like similar to cal and Julio having to hit their stride if they want to make the playoffs. If this is how games are managed the rest of the year, I mean, you're in huge trouble. And we've talked about this for two years now, this can't keep happening. 00:29:32 Speaker 3: And another thing that happened this week is that I think we got more inside the mind of like difference versus fan and player when it comes to when it comes to this situation. 00:29:43 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's a really really interesting conversation. 00:29:51 Speaker 3: So Logan Gilbert went on KJR with Softy, and Softy asked him, I believe the word softy use in his question or what would he say to people who want Dan Wilson replaced. Here's Logan's answer. I always try to be pretty nice. If I ever heard people say that I get pretty fired up, that's ridiculous that people would say that. Dan is one of the best people I've ever met. I think he's amazing at his job and what he does and the way he gets us going. I think every single one of us would go to bat for him. I love playing under him, and I hope he stays here forever. 00:30:28 Speaker 2: Okay, look, this is the Logan Gilbert podcast. We love Logan. 00:30:33 Speaker 1: Logan's been on, He's been one of our favorite guys to watch. He's been one of our favorite guys to talk to ever since he got into the Org, ever since we started to get to know him a little bit. But there is a different perspective here between players and fans, I'm sure. I look, first off, Softy really gave him a tough question there, Like, that's a tough thing to put a player on the spot for to ask him something like that. 00:31:00 Speaker 3: And by the way, someone is tenured as Softy though he can like he can ask what he wants. 00:31:06 Speaker 1: He can ask what he wants. It's his show. I'm not telling him how to run his show. It's just a tough thing to put a player on the spot to answer. And by the way, what's a player going to say for anybody that's like wow, I mean like, I mean he went to that for him. One, I mean Logan did do that, and we'll dive into that more in a minute. But two, what's any player going to say, yeah, like let him go No, of course not. That would spread like wildfire in half a second if that happened. 00:31:30 Speaker 3: It'd be a be terrible pr Yeah. 00:31:33 Speaker 1: So Logan obviously stands up for him, and he did really go in depth in the answer. It wasn't a pr trained answer. Like Logan clearly likes him, okay, Like, like that's fine, Logan can do that. But I think there's a reason that players don't make decisions too. 00:31:53 Speaker 2: No, no, because. 00:31:55 Speaker 3: What well, I mean, Doug, there's an example on this team why players don't make decisions. 00:32:03 Speaker 1: Are we just gonna leave it at that or are you gonna explain yourself or are we gonna let the people just make the connections. 00:32:08 Speaker 3: I think the people can make the connection. But you get that, well, there's like there's different there's different jobs here for everybody, Like right, Logan, Logan Gilbert's job is not to analyze how Dan Wilson manages the team from a strategic perspective, which is how Low and I look at it, because well, Logan might have a better sense on the clubhouse, and we only get bits and pieces from how that clubhouse is based on what's public. And by the way, the stuff that is public. 00:32:38 Speaker 2: Doesn't really seem that great. 00:32:40 Speaker 3: But anyways, the thing we can analyze is what actually happens in the games, right, That's the perspective we come from, and ultimately, like what matters is is how fans feel. That's a big part of it, right. 00:32:59 Speaker 1: And right now, Logan, while the twenty six guys in that clubhouse, if it's truly all twenty six might still get really fired up to play for him. There's a hell of a lot of people out there that are feeling a lot differently. 00:33:12 Speaker 2: Than you right now. 00:33:13 Speaker 1: Yeah, and for reasons, for reasons that I think fans have total validation for feeling. 00:33:19 Speaker 3: And the fans would say, okay, like, great, you guys are fired up and you're happy under this. But then I'm sitting here watching sloppy, uninspiring baseball. So does that mean that's a good thing that you guys are fired up? 00:33:33 Speaker 2: Like? 00:33:34 Speaker 3: Probably not in that case. 00:33:37 Speaker 1: So let's say it again. Do I believe that Logan really likes Stan Wilson. 00:33:43 Speaker 2: Yes? 00:33:43 Speaker 1: Do I believe that Logan Gilbert really gets motivated to go to battle for his manager? 00:33:51 Speaker 2: Yes? 00:33:51 Speaker 1: Again, I'm sure Logan really likes him. What Logan probably isn't sitting around and taking all the time in the world to analyze is why in the world you're going to Ferrara in the eighth and then Michael Rucker when the game is still close. Logan Gilbert is probably not sitting there analyzing why in the world in Cleveland a few weeks ago you just ran out of leverage arms and have to go to Michael Rucker in the eighth inning that cost you a game a couple weeks ago. He's probably not analyzing why Munno's wasn't in the game in Game seven of the Alcs after putting in Bizarto for the fifth time in the series, when he had just seen that part of the lineup the game before in game six. These are the things that the players are not analyzing. What people see that are not connected emotionally to their manager are decisions that look like a totally unsound process way too often feels like a lack of preparation at times, feels like a preparation that does not involve thinking ahead enough, and it's one move ahead rather than three moves ahead, which you have to do as a manager. And it doesn't involve the public perception that the manager puts on of his team to the public. The perception of the team that Dan might put on to the twenty six guys in the clubhouse might be great, and it might be exactly what they need. It doesn't change the fact that when fans and when the public is trying to figure out why decisions are getting made, and there are answers being given that are not well delivered and are a lot of ums and you knows and sounds like a lot of uncertainty. Well, that's what leads a lot of fans to all the twenty six players on the roster. That's what leads a lot of people outside of your clubhouse to sit there and say, what's the deal man. While you guys might feel differently, there's a different perception outside of that clubhouse that is also a valid one. 00:35:48 Speaker 3: And the thing about players is you could ask them about this, but these guys are so focused on doing their job well because they have to perform at the highest level and prepare to perform at the highest level all the time, that they don't have time to think about the big picture, Like they have lives outside of baseball and they have a job to do better than anyone on plane at Earth. So they literally can't sit there and think about those kind of things. That's just not their job. So that's not what they're going to. 00:36:19 Speaker 1: Focus on, right But there's a lot of other people out there who do have the time to focus on that stuff that are noticing it. And again, it's not out of left field. It's not some shooting from the hip type of crazy take. There's numbers behind this, there's process behind this, and there's no there's no conceptual argument for how Michael Rutger is in the game in the ninth inning after using a leverage arm when you have cut the lead closer to where it was the inning before. 00:36:52 Speaker 2: I mean, again, I'm glad. 00:36:55 Speaker 1: The players feel inspired to play for their manager, Sol Gilbert at least says publicly, But that doesn't mean that's the full picture, because it's just not. And like when you have to talk about these decisions this many times, it's a story and a manager should never ever be this big of a story, and it continues to be. 00:37:20 Speaker 3: Let's wrap this up on this thought. I'm glad the Mariners have shown like a tiny bit of life against the Giants and against the Reds Or they've hit some big home runs and they've really fired up the crowd, and they even have me believing even the slimmest percent more, none of this matters if they go out on the road against the Rangers and Dodgers and lay another goose egg. They go into Texas and they split or they lose three or four, and then I could predict pretty much what's gonna happen in LA against a supremely talented Dodger team and they get run out of the building, then we're just right back to square one, if not further back. 00:38:00 Speaker 1: Wile, oh, we'd be further back than square one if you lose three of four to the Rangers and then lose the Dodger series or you know, get swept. We're approaching territory of hashtag cooked because now you're sitting well under five hundred, approaching the trade deadline that's days away, with a market that's already not very good, and a team that maybe on the brink of asking the. 00:38:25 Speaker 2: Question of do you buy for these guys? 00:38:28 Speaker 1: These next few games are really, really important, and I hope that those swings from cole Jong and cal Raley do truly end up being the difference makers that turn things up on the upswing for good. But what you do against the Reds and Giants simply isn't a big enough story. Mariners win on Wednesday against the Reds, great, it's another win. It's not a big picture story at all. Beating Brady Singer on Wednesday is not a big picture story. You have got to go win that series against the Rangers, and you have to look like a team with some lighte against the Dodgers. If you go play the Dodgers, you win one of three, but you're competitive in the other games. You can get up about it. You lose three or four in Texas, and if you get swept by the Dodgers or lose that Dodgers series really uninspiringly man. I mean, as we sit at the end of July, at that point it is a position that it is not going to be a fun conversation to have. 00:39:22 Speaker 3: And you could buy anyways, but any hope of a World Series, at least in our eyes, is probably gone. It's most of the way gone now. But when you have like clear games circled on your calendar, facing a team that's ahead of you in the division heading into the final two months of the season, and the two time defending World Series champions with as much talent as you do have on your roster, Logan Gilbert says, they're fired up to play for Dan Wilson all the time, and Dan says his identity for his team in the second half is showing up and being ready to play. Now's the time to do it in these series because at some point the big series do after matter. You have to show up and you have to perform. And that's what we're gonna be looking for over the next week, because we're gonna be looking very closely. 00:40:12 Speaker 1: They better be ready to play starting on Friday. Those seven games that you're about to play, you better be ready to play because if you roll over and it looks like the Miami trip or it looks like the Florida Trip in general, yeah. 00:40:24 Speaker 2: We could be talking about a team that's just cooked. 00:40:26 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:40:27 Speaker 2: All right. 00:40:27 Speaker 3: We got a fantastic conversation with Joe Doyle about the Mariners draft class that we'll get to here in just a second. Before that, want to remind you guys about Emerald Queen Casinos summer lineup of shows. Jeff Dunham visits EQC this week July twenty fourth, Brandley Gilbert on August twenty second, and then Pete Davidson on August twenty eighth. Get your tickets today at Emerald Queen dot com. 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As of recording on Tuesday, Joe has gotten to see him quite a bit more over the course of his college career and has a really fun breakdown on him and some of the other fun guys in this Mariner's Draft class. 00:42:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a fun conversation and we love to have Joe on at this time of the year because he breaks down the draft as well as just about anybody, and he does a great job with this class. We talk about the overall themes of the draft, the overall themes of the Mariners class. We get into the specifics of some of the players and you're gonna learn a lot about these guys and Joe's gonna really do a nice breakdown of a bunch of the guys in this draft class for you to have your good knowledge on guys that could really be a big pieces in the farm system moving forward. So it was a great conversation. It's always fun to have them on with that. We won't keep you guys any longer. Let's get you to the interview with Joe Doyle. 00:43:20 Speaker 3: All right, we've got our friend and recurring guest, Joe Doyle on with us, the founder of the Overslot. Joe, thanks for taking some time to join us. You were running around Philadelphia during the MOB Draft this past week, just like we were. How was it? 00:43:35 Speaker 5: Philadelphia was cool? Honestly, Philadelphia surprised me. I really liked it as a city. There was a lot of energy in Philadelphia, both outside of the park and you know, for the miles extending outside of it. I thought the draft was sick. The ballroom was really cool. The Futures game, the sandlot thing during the All Star Game was one of the coolest things. I wasn't there for the All Star Game itself, but that was one of the coolest things that I've seen them do on an All Star game in a long time. I thought Philadelphia served, you know, served court really well. They put together a cool event, and it was a good city for the All Star weekend. 00:44:08 Speaker 3: It was nice having everything close together. We've had this conversation, I think years in a row now about the setups at all these different locations, and I'm really glad that Philly had things where they work. So I honestly thought it worked really well. Okay, so I think I've asked you this question a couple of years in a row when it comes to the Mariner's draft. Is we'll try and dive in on the first few picks and then ask you about some other specific guys maybe later on, or some trends that the Mariners have in this draft class. But I'm want to start with this. What is the theme of this Mariner's draft that they just pulled off. 00:44:43 Speaker 5: That's a tough question. The theme, I don't know, you know. It feels to me like Seattle was trying to figure out the new landscape of nil and college baseball. You don't see Seattle go college bat hunting in what four through ten very often. I think that was extremely rare. I think the team was dealing with budgetary constraints that they're not used to dealing with as it pertains to college arms that are getting money and il deals at big schools. I don't know if there was a theme, to be honest, I think there was some unique traits with the pitchers after round eleven. But yeah, you know, I don't know. This was just a unique year because this is the least amount of money that Seattle has had to play with in the draft since you know, you and I and Lyle, the three of us have been podcasting, So in some ways it was uncharted waters. 00:45:43 Speaker 1: So dive in, dive into that for us a little bit more. Why did they have less money this year than in years past? 00:45:49 Speaker 5: Yeah, well they you know, they're they're given a competitive balance b pick every other year. They're given a competitive balance a pick every other year besides those years, and this year they elected to trade that competitive balance be pick in the Brendan Donovan deal. That cuts off, you know, a million bucks from what you can spend in the draft. You know, they're picking twenty fourth this year. That's the lowest that they've picked in I don't know how many years, a very very long time. So that gives you less money to work with, and just in general, this was a year in the draft that didn't have very many up the middle high school talents, shortstops, second basement center fielders that fit the MO and the philosophy of the type of players that Seattle likes to target in the draft. So I think all of those contributing factors made this draft feel a lot different than most of the drafts that we can remember, going back to, you know, twenty twenty three, twenty twenty two, and so I expect that this is going to be a one year kind of blipping the radar and that they get back to being a little bit more aggressive with up the middle upside in twenty twenty seven. 00:46:51 Speaker 3: Talk about some of those negotiations that the Mariners are battling with against schools with a lot of nil money, Like where does that really come to play? And could you give like an example of player X getting this amount from the Mariners, but then the school is going to come back and offer him this much. 00:47:08 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think the perfect example is whyat Queen, you know, he's a fourth year senior at Oregon State, eleventh rounder pick number three hundred and forty in the draft. He was not a starting pitcher for the Beavers this year, and that player, ordinarily every other year had would have no leverage. That player would be offered one hundred and fifty thousand dollars and they would be happy to take it. They would get an organization spot, they would get a path into professional baseball. But the way that it works in twenty twenty six is Wyatt Queen still has one year of eligibility left. Seattle has to pay I don't know what the final number ended up being two hundred and seventy two hundred and seventy five K to get him one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars overage just to sign a college senior that was pitching out of the bullpen in a non power for conference Corvallis. That's just a perfect example of the type of you know, maneuvering that is now necessary because you can either give Wyat Queen two hundred and seventy five K, or Wyat Queen can probably get eighty to one hundred K from some school in twenty twenty seven, go back, you know, be draft eligible again in twenty twenty seven, perhaps get a shot to start in twenty twenty seven and make more money. So you're gonna see that with all of the guys that they had to overpay. Ryan Win was a part time player for much of the season at the University of Georgia, doesn't necessarily have a carrying tool, can play all over the field, has some swing and missing his game. They have to overpay that player in the seventh round in order to get them because he could have gone back to Georgia and gotten a mint. So it's just it's a difficult, you know, terrain to maneuver, especially when you have limited funds. And I think that's why you didn't see Seattle spend a ton of money on one player. They just kind of went overslot a little bit with five different players to make it work. 00:49:00 Speaker 1: Before we start to get into the specifics of some of the players and we stay on the more topic of the overall themes for a. 00:49:05 Speaker 2: Minute, let me ask you this. 00:49:08 Speaker 1: Do you think it was a strategy of the Mariners to essentially go with a no high school player's draft for the most part, or do you think that was just how the board shook out this year. 00:49:18 Speaker 5: I think it's both. I know that's a little bit of a hedge, but I do think it's both. I don't think there was a high school player available to them at sixty five that financially made sense. Like I'm sure they would have loved Dominic Santarelli for you know, two million dollars at pick sixty five, but you know that he wasn't going to accept two million dollars. And it also, when you do that, punts your fourth, your fifth, your sixth round pick. And this is an organization that has done well in the depth side of the draft. 00:49:47 Speaker 1: Now. 00:49:48 Speaker 5: I know that they punted their draft in twenty twenty four to acquire Ryan Sloan, and they could have done that this year. But they also had a lot more money to play with when it was Ryan Sloan. So I think the answer is just yes, I don't think the talent was there, and I don't think they had the money to be able to pull off something like that. 00:50:04 Speaker 3: Let's start with their first pick, when they picked Ace Reese in the first round. Why did they like him so much? 00:50:11 Speaker 5: You know, Ace rees never came up in conversations that I had with the team, that I had with folks in the front office. I don't know if it was a combination of I don't know if it was that they liked him and didn't expect him to be there, or if it was every other player that they had circled with that number twenty four pick just went ahead of them. I know the team really liked Logan Hughes. I know the team really liked Kaid Townsend and Cameron Fluky, and I think the team liked Taylor Rabe a good amount. But the Royals were right behind them and they were willing to pony up a full slot deal at pick what thirty, So I just you know, I think Seattle was delta hand where they couldn't counter other team's offers to players. And also most of the players that they wanted went right before the number twenty four picks, So you know, I don't think Ace Reese is ordinarily the type of player that Seattle would go for. But that being said, I do think there's a lot to like about Ace rees and I think there's a reason that Seattle picked him. 00:51:05 Speaker 3: They've never I think under Jerry to Poto picked like a power forward, like a like power focused corner infielder with a pick that high, I honestly can't even think of them doing it with any of their first handful of picks and a draft. Do I have that right? 00:51:23 Speaker 5: I can't think of the last player with this amount of swing and miss and this amount of chase that Seattle has taken in the top two rounds of any draft in the last eight or nine drafts. Even if you go to the second round, most of the players that they had taken that have some of those similar characteristics. Maybe they do swing and miss a bunch, but they're like, you know, fabulous runners that this this guy, Ace Rees isn't a great athlete. He's not a great quote unquote hit tool guy. This is a guy that hits the ball very, very hard when he hits it. Now, I've said this on other podcasts. I think the raw power of Aceries is being overblown a bit. I think it's more above average encroaching on plus if he gets a little bit stronger. I just think this guy knows how to find the fat part of the bat and lift and pull the ball better than just about anybody in the country. And so because of that, I've I've likened him to like a thirty three year old version of Kyle Seger, but a thirty three year old version of Kyle Seger is not what the Seattle Mariners have targeted early in drafts, going back to the very beginning of the Jerry Depoto era. 00:52:30 Speaker 1: If Luke Rayley a decent example, not in terms of outfielder versus infielder, but just in terms of a potential platoon left handed hitting bat with some power and swinging this well. 00:52:40 Speaker 5: So I mean maybe offensively you could compare it to that Luke Rayley is. He's a sneaky above average runner, like he can really get down the line. It's it's ugly in the field, like he's not a good instinctual athlete, but from a just a swing and miss batted ball outcomes perspective at the plate. Yeah, Now that being said, if Luke Rayley had the ability to play third base at an average level, I think we'd all feel a little bit differently about what Luke Rayley is and how valuable Luke Raley is. But because he's a you know, a below average corner outfielder, you know, he always leaves something to be desired. So I really do think, like the very end of Kyle Seeger's career, where he wasn't a you know, decorated gold glove third baseman, and or or maybe you just look at au heeneos Waraz and you say Ace Reese is a left handed version of auhneios Warrez. Like, I think there's a universe where that comp works as well. 00:53:35 Speaker 3: Does Ace Rees not like fill a hole that the Murders have in their farm system though, because they just don't have a lot of like designated corner infielders in the high A to double A range, which I feel like by this time next year is going to be exactly what Ace Rees is. 00:53:52 Speaker 5: I think if if Ace Reese is a third baseman and Seattle is going to take their time, they're going to be very diligent with making sure that he is getting all the development he needs at third base, I think he does fill a hole. I don't. I don't see a future third baseman in the Mariners farm system. Nor do I see a third baseman, you know, playing for the Mariners right now. Maybe it's Brendan Donovan in twenty twenty seven, but we saw how that looked like that does need some work. 00:54:17 Speaker 3: Uh. 00:54:18 Speaker 5: Look, I don't think Seattle has a whole lot of power in their in their farm system, at least on the infield anymore either. So I think this certainly maakes questions as to whether Felning Celestin is going to be dangled as trade bait. That's the guy right now that I'm looking at going. I don't know where you're going to find a spot for Felnin Celestin, especially since he's showing that he can really hit. So the risk with ace Rees is the redundancy if he does become a first baseman, if he does become a corner outfielder, well, then he's fighting with Naylor and Canzone and Raley and perhaps Lazar Romntes for the same role in the organization at the highest level. So they the Seattle Mariners, really need ace Rees to be a third baseman. 00:55:02 Speaker 1: Not to get two side tracked here, but just since you brought him up and you're talking about third baseman or potential third basement in the system, could Felny not play third? 00:55:10 Speaker 2: Does he not have the tool set for it? 00:55:12 Speaker 5: I think he does. We've just never really seen it, right, I think Felnan I've gone up and watched him a few times this year. I just think that the game gets moving too fast on him. His feet get out from under him. His arm accuracy is kind of all over the place sometimes. I actually still think he's a good enough, good enough athlete to play the shortstop position. He is just taking a long time to kind of get the fundamentals down, to get the footwork down, to make sure that you're in a throwing position once you've collected yourself every time. So you know, there's certainly questions on whether or not he can play shortstop. I think he could probably play second base if they gave him the opportunity to, but third base. I mean, he's a good enough athlete. He's got a good first step, he's got the arm strength. It's just a matter of can he put the ball on the first baseman. Slowed the game down a little bit, and admittedly that's taking longer than I was expecting for him. 00:56:05 Speaker 1: I guess I just asked because your middle endfield's pretty crowded for the next decade. I mean, your shortstop's got an eight year deal, and Cole Young's been a three win second baseman, So just logistically about potential open positions when Felning eventually is ready. That's why I look at third base and said, oh, maybe. 00:56:22 Speaker 5: I'll say this too, like I think the Feling Celestin power conversation is perhaps a little bloated in the public space, like the exit velocities are fringy to average. I know, he's got what eight, nine, ten home runs this year, like he's hitting the ball out of Funko field. But Lyle, you could hit the ball out of Funko field. I don't know if TJ and I could, But Lyle, you could. 00:56:42 Speaker 3: Hit the ball out of funk field. 00:56:44 Speaker 5: Like Lyle, you might. You might be able to hit I five. TJ and I aren't doing it, and TJ and I or we're on the same we're on the same levels as Felnian Celestion. So I think I'll put it this way. When Celestin arrives to Arkansas this year, let's say he plays two and a half more months at Arkansas, two more months at Arkansas, I would be surprised if he hits more than five or six homers in Arkansas over the next two months. Happy to be surprised. But he's not a power guy. He's more of a bat to ball merchant. 00:57:13 Speaker 1: Let's compare two players. They're making similar contracts, but you have to pick one guy to be in your lineup. Player one hit three hundred. He had an eight to forty ops and a one forty one WRC plus, forty one percent better than the league average. Player two hit one eighty five. 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But you alluded to it a minute ago when you were talking about them, But do you feel like they had to pivot off their original plan of their pick a little bit? Because, like you, it did feel like they liked some of those college arms that they liked Fluky and they liked Townsend, and then those two went the two picks right before they were set to select. Do you think it was a bit of a pivot, especially because you were saying you hadn't heard his name come up much. 01:00:06 Speaker 5: I think it was a pivot. You know, one thing that we at least I can't remember hearing Scott Hunter say this. I haven't heard the front office say, you know, we didn't expect this caliber of player to land in our lap at twenty four, like they've kind of said, you know, some of the pr speak and in terms of that. But I don't know if you guys remember this, but like when when Kyle Lewis fell into their lap at pick thirteen or whenever that was ten ten, I think it was eleven, Yeah, right in that range when he went when he fell into their lap, it was one of those just like, yeah, we deviated from what we were going to do because we could not believe he was there. Same with like George Kirby. We don't know why other teams weren't on this, Like people were all like the scouting staff, the front office, they were effusive about like how did this happen? Like we're just so stunned this player was able to get to us. I haven't heard that same level of charisma and energy surrounding a series. It's not to say that they don't like him. I want to make sure that that's clear They certainly like him, but I don't think the team had planned for ace Rees being Option one A. They probably thought he was going to go before them, but that doesn't mean that they were also a fan of his game. I just think he was what was there for them at twenty four. And you know, you can say this about ace Rees when you're picking at pick twenty four, you still need to get a guy that has carrying tools, a guy that has a path to the big leagues with a specific way he plays the game. Ace Rees has game power that plays in Major League Baseball, and so for that you have to applaud what they were able to acquire. 01:01:36 Speaker 3: Let's move on to their second pick in LSU outfielder Jake Brown. If ace Reese doesn't have quite as much ceiling as the Mariors would usually target in the first round, it does seem like there's a little bit more projectability for Jake Brown. What should Mariners fans look for from him? 01:01:53 Speaker 5: Yeah, like Jake Brown was a two way player. He was a left handed pitcher for LSU in twenty twenty four and twenty twenty five, gave up took to being a hitter full time in twenty twenty six was off to a very very good start in the year, cooled off a little bit in April, and then he broke his hammet bone, ending his season. Tons of tools. He's a right fielder by nature, but he's a seventy grade straight line runner. He can really burn down the base paths. There's some stiffness in his mobility. I might be getting to the into the weeds here, but there's some stiffness in the way that he moves that kind of holds back his athleticism and it holds back his ability to really showcase what a good athlete he is. So I think what Seattle is going to end up doing in you know, high performance camp and over the winter and going into twenty twenty seven, they're going to work to unlock some of that athleticism and make it show up in the field. They're gonna work with him on his swing and his lower half. His lower half is all over the place. It loses he SAPs out some of his row power with the way that he moves in the dish or at the dish. So I think, you know, in the same way, in the same conversations we were having about Johnny Farmelo, in twenty twenty three, where oh it's a different swing every time, and oh he's a swing tinker and he's you know, big, but he's really fast. Like I think that's the Jake Brown conversation. He's probably going to look like a different version of himself at opening day twenty twenty seven than what you're seeing on highlight clips in twenty twenty six. I'm excited about Jake Brown. He's a really good dude. I've talked to him, I've gotten to know him a little bit. Tons of tools, a gifted hitter that just hasn't had the runway to put it all together in one season so far. 01:03:33 Speaker 1: Is he the type of dude who you could really just see explode as you give him two years in the system where you could look back and say, the Mariners really really developed this guy. They took the raw tools developed them. And to your point about Farmelo, we've seen like when he's at his best, that's a really really fun player to dream on. Is it a similar kind of situation with Brown? 01:03:53 Speaker 5: Yeah, And Jake Brown is a better naturally gifted, pure hitter than Johnny Farmelo ever, was like, Jake Brown isn't going to strike out a whole bunch. He's going to take his walks, He's going to be more selective. There's holes in his swing, without question. But I also don't think he's had the runway to really develop himself as a hitter. So, you know, do I think he's going to explode and become this like top fifty prospect in the sport. I don't know if he's quite to that level, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jake Brown ended up as a top one hundred prospect in the sport and just comes up as one of the more, you know, steady strong like Jake Frayley. Honestly just a very steady, good hitter, can play all three outfield positions, can really burn has some things that you wish were a little bit more, you know, refined in his game, but just a good big leaguer. And ironically, I think Jake Freiley was an LSU outfielder too. 01:04:46 Speaker 3: Mm hmm, yeah, yes he was. What about Nathan Taylor out of Cincinnati in the third round there seems to be speaking of projectability. I mean, he's got the extension, he's got a really good slider that he showcased in college, the Maritors say they want to use his fast a lot more. What's the profile of Nathan Taylor. 01:05:03 Speaker 5: I think they're going to tinker with the fastball. I think they're gonna try and get better fastball shapes out of him. Right now, it's just kind of an in between, you know, ride and tail fastball that doesn't do either shape too dramatic, So it's kind of a flat fastball, is what I'm trying to say. But I think the issue with Nathan Taylor is they're going to get him moving better. He's a great extender, he's a good athlete, ninety two to ninety four up to ninety six and a half. I would expect they're going to try and do the whole George Kirby thing where you get him into gas camp, you work with him for a winner, maybe you work with him for two winners, and then we look opening day twenty twenty eight, he's, you know, right on the precipice of you know, maybe pitching for the Rainiers, and all of a sudden he's ninety four to ninety six, touching ninety eight here and there, and he's just a very very solid number four starter. That is carried by that slider. The slider is obviously the thing that is going to have Seattle pretty excited. So definitive starting pitching prospect, tons of strikes, four pitches, excellent mover, just needs a bit of tinkering and added velocity with the fastball to become a better version of himself. 01:06:07 Speaker 2: Is there a sleeper in this draft that you really like? 01:06:10 Speaker 1: Or when I say sleeper, somebody that the Mariners took in the later rounds that really popped to you. I think I've used this example with you the last couple of years because I think the first time I asked you this question, you hit the nail right on the head because it was twenty twenty three's draft and you said, the two sleepers I really like are Brody Hopkins and Logan Evans, And you totally hit the nail on the head with those. So is there guys in this draft that maybe aren't to the caliber of those two, but guys that the Mariners took later on? And you say, circle that guy's name in a couple of years. 01:06:41 Speaker 5: So for me, I think it's probably Drew Whalen. You know, Drew Whalen was before he got hurt in twenty twenty five, he was up to ninety six, had a sinking fastball with good spin rates. He could really shape the cutter, could really shape the curveball, and the splitter can move the ball east and west and can really do some things from kind of an unorthodox low slot, kind of that low three quarter slot. I would expect that he is probably not going to see affiliated ball until like May of twenty twenty seven. Like we probably don't see him right out of the gate in twenty twenty seven. But Drew Whalen is a guy that has my attention. And then the other one is probably whyat Queen the eleventh rounder at Oregon State, I'm just interested to hear whether or not they try a reliever to starter conversion. I've watched him pitch three and a third at times. I've watched him rack up fifty plus pitches at times. It's a really really gross slider and the fastball is just like ninety to ninety two most days. But you know, a guy like that, could, you know, can seattle think their teeth into him and perhaps turn him into a starter, even if it's a number five, even if it's trade bait. Drew Whalen and wyat Queen would be my answers. 01:07:53 Speaker 3: What about these three SEC guys they picked from rounds five to seven like they win as looking at their draft, I mean, they did go pretty heavy into the SEC. I'm wondering if there's any specific thing they're seeing in these three guys that are like, all right, this is working out for us. We can add this to our system. 01:08:11 Speaker 5: Yeah, so relatively certain that the Hayden Yost pick is more of a you know, regional scout, area scout type pick, like has a little bit of size, can run, it's a nice left handed swing, like it looks great on film. The results have never really been there for Hayden Yost. His brother was a first rounder in twenty twenty five for the Tigers. I think he's a potential center fielder in Seattle, probably ends up in left field. I didn't really understand the Ryan Winn pick. If I'm being completely transparent, and I've said this elsewhere for me, probably not the type of value that I would have invested in in the seventh round overslot. But like I've said, this is the reason that they don't pay me for this sort of thing, Right, And then Henry Ford is just I think he's Ryan Heally. Like, you know, you try to put Ryan Healey at third base, It's just okay, you can put him there in a pinch, you know, Ryan Healey ended up at first base. It's big raw power to the pull side. It's a heavy barrel, can really get into a baseball. But there's a good amount of swing and miss. There's a good amount of swinging and missing at sliders outside of the zone, but kind of a three true outcome type of a slugger that for me, I think ends up at first base, although you could probably hide him in left field or right field as a fourth outfielder if you need to. 01:09:29 Speaker 2: So do you like the class overall? 01:09:32 Speaker 5: I am lukewarm on the class. I think because Seattle didn't have the comp B pick, because they picked twenty fourth, because they didn't have a ton of money. Obviously, your expectations relative to drafts of the last five or six years need to be brought down a little bit. And because of the new nil era where guys are making a lot more money, and you know, a post tenh round or Day three draft pick is no longer just a a one hundred and fifty thousand dollars sign like you've got to overpay him to get him. I thought that some of the players that they picked were outside of their ordinary philosophy, and they were outside of what they do well developmentally. But I also thought it was a they still grabbed some players that fit the traits on the mound. I just I wish Seattle would have gone for more pitchers in rounds four through ten. To be totally honest with you, So I liked their draft. I didn't love their draft. We'll see how it looks in a few years, but all things considered, I gave it a B minus. 01:10:39 Speaker 3: Last thing for me, Joe, if you're gonna make a prediction, who's gonna be the fastest riser in this class, who's it gonna be? 01:10:45 Speaker 5: I mean, I think if if Wyatt Queen is a reliever, I think Wya Queen is gonna be the first to the big leagues. I think he could see Seattle as early as late twenty twenty seven, early twenty twenty eight. The slider is that good, especially if he can find any Velt. The reason I don't think the top of this draft is going to move very quickly is Ace Reese needs time, I mean tons of seasoning at third base. Jake Brown needs time, he needs biomechanical fixes, he needs you know. These are I'll put the word project on these guys. These are two projects that Seattle's going to really try and get the most out of. You know, maybe Nathan Taylor finds velocity immediately this winter. If that's the case, he would move quickly. So I think, you know, I think Wyat Queen is the most likely to move quickly. I think Trevor lucas their fourth rounder because of his versatility, because of his pitch selection skills, his bat to ball skills, the you know, semi interesting power numbers under the hood. I think he could move relatively quickly as well, but not in a full time, permanent starter role, more in a like Abraham Toro type of he can play all the different spots of the infield. He can play perhaps left field. I think that's the guy that you should look at and go, there's a chance we see this guy, you know, in Tacoma by the end of twenty twenty seven. 01:12:07 Speaker 3: So glad we got to name drop Abe Toro as we wrap this one up. 01:12:11 Speaker 5: I do it for you guys, ye, I do get you guys. I real, I was on a little notepad. I go make sure to mention Abraham Torres Sile's favorite player. 01:12:19 Speaker 2: No, no, you got to you gotta flip. 01:12:20 Speaker 3: It's my favorite player. 01:12:22 Speaker 5: TJ's favorite player, Lyle, who's your favorite player? I've got more notepads? 01:12:25 Speaker 1: Oh man, yeah, I mean TJ. That's his least favorite Mariner of all time? 01:12:29 Speaker 2: H what who's mine? Toughi's up there. 01:12:32 Speaker 1: That was a tough, tough watch and he was an ASU guy, so it's in some way that hurts to say. But man, those handful of games that he played in Seattle back in seventeen, it was. 01:12:42 Speaker 2: Like, what are we doing? 01:12:44 Speaker 5: Was was your that's your nightmare? 01:12:47 Speaker 2: Huh? 01:12:48 Speaker 5: I think there's got to be someone that has you more scorn than Toughy Gossowitch. He bet he played like twenty games. 01:12:55 Speaker 1: It was twenty of the worst games you'd ever watch. But there's anybody more recent? I feel like, I mean, help me out to you, Dare there are guys that I'm not thinking of. 01:13:07 Speaker 5: Or anything like that? 01:13:08 Speaker 1: Oh well yeah, if you want to go back that far, for sure, Sean Figgins it's probably him. 01:13:12 Speaker 3: But yeah, recent examples. See Usually Lyle's more optimistic about players than I hate on them, So that's usually that dynamic. 01:13:24 Speaker 5: There's a tough, tough day to be toughy ghosts witch man. 01:13:27 Speaker 3: It's like it's like Dylan Moore. Lyle for the longest time was the world's biggest Dylan Moore fan, and I was just like, eh. 01:13:34 Speaker 2: I like this game for a long time. 01:13:35 Speaker 5: Now like his game too. You gotta you gotta evaluate Dylan Moore in terms of what he should be for a team. 01:13:43 Speaker 2: Right. 01:13:43 Speaker 5: If you're evaluating him as a five hundred and fifty play appearance starter, that's a Mariners problem and probably a problem. 01:13:50 Speaker 2: Yeah. 01:13:50 Speaker 1: I mean listen when he was ops ing one against lefties for a three month stretch last year, Like that's when he lost me. It's like, all right, this is over. 01:13:58 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this has been great. We always appreciate you taking some time to join us and look forward to having you back on again as our most reoccurring guest and your first guest and in our first case. Yes, it's all right. 01:14:11 Speaker 5: Catch you boys. 01:14:15 Speaker 2: Always fun to sit down with. 01:14:16 Speaker 3: Joe. 01:14:16 Speaker 1: Hopefully after that conversation, you guys have some more knowledge on Ace Reese on Jake Brown on Nathan Taylor and the overall themes of the Mariner's Draft class, because there's a lot there. 01:14:26 Speaker 2: It's an interesting class. 01:14:27 Speaker 1: It's different than most of the classes, but Joe tells you why and why it was different and what to expect out of these guys, and it'll be really interesting to see how. 01:14:35 Speaker 2: These guys progress moving forward. 01:14:37 Speaker 1: With that, that'll just about wrap up this edition of the Marine Layer Podcast. 01:14:41 Speaker 2: You guys know the drill. 01:14:41 Speaker 1: If you want to listen to the full form podcast, you can do so wherever you get your audio pods. Make sure to go rate and review and leave it five stars if you're on the audio platforms, and go download the episodes while you're at it too. It really helps. Go hit subscribe on YouTube if you're watching on the video side, you can always follow with our stuff. If you hit subscribe on YouTube, you'll see when we post content. 01:15:02 Speaker 2: It's an easy way to keep up to date with it. 01:15:04 Speaker 1: And then you can check us out at our website too, marine layerpod dot com. All of our episodes are there, patreons there, podcast merches all there. Go get yourself some that's marine layerpod dot com and buy us on social media. We're posting content every single day on all of our platforms At Marine Layer Pod. 01:15:21 Speaker 2: That's TJ. I'm Lyle. As always, we thank you guys for tuning in. We'll talk to you soon.