Episode 451: Mariners Split The First Two Games In Boston + Who Will Be The Next Bat They Add In The Middle Of The Lineup?

00:00:00 Speaker 1: Welcome to episode number 451 of the Marine Layer podcast. The Marist has split the first two games in Boston in, well, interesting fashion. We'll react to all the action, and then we'll also follow up on a talking point we had on Monday's episode about a potential middle-of-the-order bat in the offseason. 00:00:17 Speaker 2: Reminder to you guys, before we start these episodes, just make sure you download these podcasts if you're listening on audio, on Apple, on Spotify, wherever you get your audio pods. Go hit subscribe if you're watching on YouTube. You can also find everything at our website at marinelayerpod.com, from our merch to our Patreon, the whole nine yards. And then follow us on social media. We're everywhere, every platform at marinelayerpod. 00:00:39 Speaker 1: Let's get it rolling. 00:00:40 Speaker 2: Let's get it rolling. 00:00:54 Speaker 1: And we welcome you to this episode of the Marine Ladder Podcast, part of the Just Baseball Podcast Network, recording here on Tuesday evening, September 1st. The Mariners have played two games in Boston. They blew the first one and almost blew the second one. It's essentially the same game getting played twice, with the Mariners being on opposite sides of a 50-50 coin. Does that sound accurate? 00:01:18 Speaker 2: I mean, yes, except they almost found a way to blow a game in which they led 9-1. 00:01:23 Speaker 1: Well, exactly. I mean, Monday's game also should have been in hand, but it wasn't. No. 00:01:29 Speaker 2: They find ways to make wins stressful. They had to sweat out for outs in a game on Tuesday where they were up 9-1. They had to use Andres Munoz again in a game they were up 9-1. Yeah. 00:01:44 Speaker 1: Because the team doesn't have mental relief, and the team desperately needs better pitchers. They finished the month of August with the worst pitching staff in Major League Baseball. Not just starters, not just relievers. Worst cumulative pitching staff in Major League Baseball. Worse than the A's. Watch the A's when they come into town this weekend. I challenge you to name more than two current pitchers for the Sacramento A's. And then realize that the Mariners finished the month of August with a worse pitching staff than the A's. 00:02:15 Speaker 2: Are you asking me to name a couple of A's or just the people listening? No, just the people listening. Just for some context. Like a pitching staff with all of these, what should be great arms, had an ERA nearly of six as a staff. I mean, the rotation's not the same story anymore. They're not the guys they were in 2024. It's not a great rotation. 00:02:37 Speaker 1: Not on the road. No, definitely not on the road. And I will give Brian Wu this. He's had a couple of good road starts in a row. Sandwiched with a really shitty outing at home. But you know, Brian Wu might take his small wins on the road at this point, given that he was facing a very good Phillies lineup in his home start. Let's do some positive. That was one of the greatest debuts in Mariners franchise history for Lazaro Montes. He walked, he had his first hit, he had his first RBI, and he had a home run to dead center field at Fenway Park. And he had a huge smile on his face. 00:03:14 Speaker 2: That was really cool. There have been so few things to cheer for for most of the year, and especially as of late. So when you have something like that happen, us, you, all Mariners fans, everybody, enjoy the wins. Enjoy that. Because, one, he really is one of the greatest dudes, Laz Montez. He is so easy to root for. He's got an infectious personality. We've talked about that before. So, number one, just a really, really feel-good story. But... Number two, we're not going to dive too deep into the pitch-by-pitch sequences and at-bats of one game, but he did not look overmatched in the first game. Now, they were facing some near-minor league arms, but it doesn't matter. It's in the big leagues. Laz was in the big leagues, and in his first big league game, he did not look overmatched. 00:04:05 Speaker 1: You got, I think, the entire Lazaro Montes experience in this first game. You got his walk, where he laid off a pretty close pitch in his first at-bat to draw a walk, but that's something Laz has done really well every single level of baseball he's played. He's always, despite his enormous strike zone, had a pretty good idea for what to swing at and what not to swing at. You will get a strikeout where Laz works deep into a count, which if you're going to walk, 15 to 20% of the time, or let's just say 10 to 15% of the time now that Laz is at the big league level, you're going to work a lot of deep counts because you're trying to get to ball four. That will generally lead you to get to two strikes more often and therefore strike out. And when you swing and miss in the zone as much as Laz does, that'll tend to happen. But then you'll also get the chance to hit a ball where I don't even think Laz got all of the ball that he hit out to dead center field. But because he's a light tower of a human being, he's able to fist that right over the wall over 400 feet away. I don't even think Goldie thought it was gone off the bat based on the tone of his voice. But that ball was gone by a decent margin to dead center field. He's one home run closer to the mark I set for him for September, Lyle. I said seven. Hit seven home runs in September and see what kind of difference it can make to this offense. I don't know. It's... One-seventh of the way there. 00:05:38 Speaker 2: You know what was pretty impressive? That pitch was on a slider, too. The home run he hit was on a slider. And Laz has always crushed fastballs in the minors. He's gotten tied up pretty good by breaking balls throughout a lot of his minor league tenure. He was not fazed by that slider. Credit to him. Worked the count. Did not look overmatched in his first at-bat when he walked. Punched a single through the right side. Homers. That was a pretty good debut. 00:06:04 Speaker 1: Now. 00:06:05 Speaker 2: I don't know if he's going to be in the lineup or should be in the lineup here on Wednesday when, you know, there's a lefty on the mound. But again, we're talking about his debut. Enjoy the wins. And what Laz did in Tuesday's game was, yeah, I mean, he's the youngest Mariner ever to home earn a debut. And he's also one of a very few handful of Mariners to home earn a debut. And you got to see what Laz can look like when he's at his best. That is not the best competition he'll face. He'll see better arms as time goes on, but debuts aren't about all that. Debuts are feel-good stories, and that was a feel-good story here on Tuesday. 00:06:44 Speaker 1: The guy the Red Sox ran out there tonight in six and two-thirds big league innings this year has given up 14 earned runs. I was hoping the Mariners were going to score some runs against them in the end. They definitely did. 00:06:59 Speaker 2: They caught a big break, by the way, because it was supposed to be Sonny Gray pitching here on Tuesday. The Red Sox decided to skip his start. They must be trying to keep him fresh because, well, the Red Sox are a team that will actually be going to the playoffs. And a guy that's an aged veteran like Sonny Gray that's been as good as he's been this year, yeah, keep him fresh. If he's feeling rusty or just needs a turn skipped in the rotation, sure. And the Red Sox did that. Which benefited the Mariners pretty, pretty damn good by getting to see that guy here on Tuesday and absolutely just mash against them. If Sonny Gray had been pitching, it might have been a different story. 00:07:32 Speaker 1: Sonny Gray's got a top 10 ERA in Major League Baseball. Instead, they got someone who probably should not have been throwing a big league game at all this year. 00:07:41 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:07:42 Speaker 1: Yes. And they made him pay. Because this guy, I think it's Hedickson Paz. Pius. 00:07:48 Speaker 2: Pius. 00:07:48 Speaker 1: Yeah. Pius. Just wasn't, he wasn't fooling anybody, especially Randy Orozarena. I mean, Randy, I think it's like 50% of the reason the Mariners have put up so many runs in these first couple games at Fenway. I don't know if it's just a coincidence, dog, but Boston may or may not be one of the teams that people keep predicting Randy Orozarena to go to in the offseason, given their big payroll and that they're on the East coast and that they like spending money on free agents. And it's a good hitters park for a right-handed hitter. And what do you know, Randy Rose Rainey gets two games at Fenway park as a Mariner. And he, well, puts on quite a show for Craig Bezo up there in the suite and John Henry. 00:08:32 Speaker 2: Clearly. Yeah. We may see Randy and red and white next year. We'll see. It's it's, I mean, it doesn't feel like he's going to be back in Seattle. We'll get to that later. 00:08:43 Speaker 1: But even for the people who don't, who think Randy is going to be a crummy free agent, you know what the Red Sox also do? They sign bad free agents too. 00:08:52 Speaker 2: Like all the time. Yeah. 00:08:54 Speaker 1: Hanley Ramirez, Pablo Sandoval, Ruzny Castillo. 00:09:00 Speaker 2: Ruzny Castillo. I mean, Yoshida has not gone well. That guy got nearly a hundred million bucks. Oh yeah. You said Pablo Sandoval. There's a bunch. There's a lot. 00:09:13 Speaker 1: It's always possible. Randy has been great these first two games. And he's definitely done his part to help the Mariners score all these runs. And you would think in any normal series, the Mariners would have won the first two games of these series based on their offensive output. But then Monday's game happened. 00:09:34 Speaker 2: Good Lord. I mean, like, what is there even left to say? I should really be pulling up. You know what I should have tweeted out on Monday? Because I think I just basically tweeted same shit, different day. What I really should have tweeted on Monday after the loss is just the Brian Kelly clip at LSU. Just, we're sitting here again. We're sitting here again talking about the same things. Because we are. It's like they find new creative ways to lose. every single game but they just again like it's all the same problems with the lack of focus and attention to detail and sloppy play but they do it in new creative ways every time they lose. 00:10:15 Speaker 1: Yeah and if I think Monday would sting a whole lot more if the Mariners were in a playoff spot or any of us realistically thought like they were going to go to the playoffs or that they were like fighting for a playoff spot. I mean, the problem is you would just come off getting swept by the blue Jays. So when Julio misplays that ball in center and it gets past them and you realize the game is almost certainly about to be tied. I was just laughing. Because that's the point of the season this is at. It's no longer frustration. It's no longer, for me at least, I think other people can react differently if they want. We're never going to tell people how they're going to react to anything. But we're just at the point of the grieving process where it's laughing about our favorite baseball team finding a different way to make another team win a baseball game. 00:11:15 Speaker 2: I won't play it again because I've played it twice in the last two weeks on these podcasts, but you better believe as soon as Julio misplayed that ball on Monday night, the Squidward clip got sent in all our Mariners group chats, that's for sure. Like, of just the hysterically laughing like a hyena. Because that's where I'm at too. I'm past the anger stage. I've accepted this team is almost definitely not making the playoffs. So when, like, abhorrent losses like that go down, like, I've just learned to laugh about them. 00:11:44 Speaker 1: And then there's what Julio said after the game, which I'm trying to find. 00:11:48 Speaker 2: I've got it. You want me to pull it up? 00:11:50 Speaker 1: Well, I'm finding... Where is... Where'd it go? Oh, now I got it. 00:11:55 Speaker 2: Okay. 00:11:56 Speaker 1: So Julio said after the game, my instincts told me to go for it. Totally fair. He's a center fielder. He should be very confident in his ability. And being in between, I feel like... I feel like it's... And being in between, I feel like it's not an option. So I went for it. Couldn't get it, unfortunately, that ended up costing us a run is what he said. 00:12:21 Speaker 2: So nowhere in there do you hear that's on me. Nowhere do you hear I have to be better. Nowhere do you hear a play like that can't happen. Nowhere do you hear we're too late in the season to be having mistakes like that go down, especially late in games. You don't hear any of that. You hear, well, I just thought I had the right play and I just happened to misplay it. Unfortunately, it cost us a run. Actually, it cost you the game. And now it's probably going to cost you the series. Like, it is example 10 million in the year of 2026 for the Seattle Mariners of a situation that featured absolutely zero accountability from anybody. Like, nowhere in there does Julio say... That's on me. That can't happen. I have to be better. It's well, like it, you know, things like this happen and it just costs us a run. 00:13:13 Speaker 1: La la la. 00:13:14 Speaker 2: Like, like, you know, we'll get them tomorrow. How many games are there left in the year? 22 games. Like there's, there's not, there's not time to be saying, well, we'll just get them tomorrow. You're, you're nine games under 500. 00:13:31 Speaker 1: And then Dan didn't say anything to Everett. And he's like, oh, he's trying to make the catch, no question. But that's just the difficult part of the decision is understanding, you know, how close you can get. It's just nothing. 00:13:41 Speaker 2: No worries. 00:13:41 Speaker 1: It's like we need to be more responsible with Andres Munoz on the mound. What should have been sort of stated is given the situation, having Andres Munoz on the mound, know that we just got to keep the ball in front of us. Because more likely than not, Andres Munoz is not going to allow three hits in an inning, which is what would have been required if Roman was just on first base. The odds of Andres Munoz allowing another single and then another single are much lower than Roman getting all the way to third and the Red Sox hitting a sacrifice fly to tie the game. 00:14:17 Speaker 2: Dude, Munoz looked nasty on Monday. He had his stuff working. That ball absolutely should have been kept to a single. And if it gets kept to a single... Almost certainly he gets out of that and the Mariners win. But no, it wasn't a single. It was a triple. I actually thought Roman might go for an inside the park home run once that ball got by Julio. 00:14:36 Speaker 1: Wrong part of the park. 00:14:38 Speaker 2: What's that? 00:14:39 Speaker 1: Wrong part of the park. It had to go to the triangle. 00:14:42 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess if it had gone there, then he probably goes around the bases. 00:14:45 Speaker 1: But... Just another example of the team finding another way to lose and then not taking accountability for said loss. Like, when it just... When the tone after the game, oh, it happens. Like it does happen with this team way too much. That's the problem. 00:15:03 Speaker 2: All the time. Yeah. Dan's words in addition to what you said are, yeah, tough break. No, Dan. 00:15:11 Speaker 1: It's at Fenway Park. It happens sometimes. Like we got to pitch better. We've had the worst pitching staff in baseball for a month. We're not going to make the playoffs so we don't pitch better. 00:15:19 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:15:21 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:15:21 Speaker 2: It is a tough break, Dan. Your teams have had about a million tough breaks this year because you manage a team that's not focused. It plays sloppy baseball. There's no attention to detail that like guys, guys have no idea of the situation half the time. Yeah. Those are the tough breaks that you manage and, and by not like setting any level of accountability all year are enabling. So yes, it is a tough break. Like, but maybe actually say something that acknowledges the type of play that your team is putting on the field. But no, no, all you need is hashtag tough one. And it's, and that's baseball. Yeah. 00:16:01 Speaker 1: Yeah. Tough one. 00:16:02 Speaker 2: You know, um, um, um, you know, um, tough one, tough one. Um, you know, it's like those three words. It's like those three words and almost nothing else has ever said tough one. 00:16:11 Speaker 1: Um, and you know, Thank goodness for Laz, because otherwise we would have taken a split to start this Red Sox series and just been ranting for 15 minutes. Thank you, Laz, honestly. I loved the call Laz had with his parents, too, where he was crying. You could see how much this meant to Laz. And even knowing he probably had an idea... this year that he's going to get called up at some point, especially with all the success he's having. But you can clearly tell the impact it has on someone when they finally realize something like that is true. I can't wait to say hi to Laz when we're at the park on Friday. That should be cool. 00:16:48 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just different when you actually receive the news, when it all hits you like a train, even if you're expecting it. To actually get the news, yeah, you worked your whole life to get to that moment. And everything kind of changes for you in that moment, and it's such a culmination of everything you've put into your baseball career coming to life in that moment. So, yeah, of course it hits you. It should hit you. And, like, it was a very cool call. Did you also see the video inside the clubhouse in Tacoma when Laz and Michael Arroyo were hugging it out big time? 00:17:18 Speaker 1: They had a long hug. 00:17:20 Speaker 2: And Arroyo, I'm sure, is thinking to himself, well, where's my call? Like, I want to get up there, and I don't blame Michael Arroyo if he's feeling that way, but... Him and Laz are also very, very good friends, and have basically made every stop of the way together. So it was cool that while Arroyo thinks, and probably for good reason, believes that he should be a big leaguer also at this point, that he acknowledged in the moment to just be really happy for his friend, and he showed that. So that was cool. 00:17:47 Speaker 1: Those two are in the same international class. They've been pretty much at the same level for every stop. I can't think of a time there was... separation at all or much separation where they're not at the same level at the same time. 00:18:04 Speaker 2: Yeah. They've moved to get, that's what I was saying. They've moved together for the most part. Yeah. 00:18:09 Speaker 1: So maybe we'll see Michael row at some point in September. We won't see if the Duke Mariners somehow do make the post season. We won't see either Laz or Michael Arroyo given that Laz was added to the 40 man roster today on September 1st, he would have needed to be added to, August 31st. Now, you'll also be probably pleased to hear, Lyle, that Hobie Milner also can't be on the playoff roster. 00:18:34 Speaker 2: Dude, Jemai Jones, at least when he was with the Tigers this year, was as bad as a baseball player can be. And he hit one well over the monster against Hobie Milner. I mean, that ball was obliterated. 00:18:47 Speaker 1: Dude, they couldn't wait to get Hobie Milner out of the game fast enough. Yeah. Like, he was in the game, and I think within a batter, they were like, oh, this guy needs to get out of the game. 00:18:56 Speaker 2: Yes. 00:18:57 Speaker 1: Like, that might be the fastest pitching decision I've ever seen from Dan Wilson. Like, on the spot, you want to talk about fast processing decision making? Here's me crediting Dan Wilson with making a right decision. He was on top of it. Wow. 00:19:12 Speaker 2: It's amazing. Go get Hobie Miller out of the game and get Andres Munoz in. Wow. It's... Is he going to get manager of the year votes this year, you think? Maybe just for that alone. 00:19:23 Speaker 1: Maybe we'll give him manager of the week. 00:19:27 Speaker 2: Well, then Monday happens, so I don't know. Oh, yeah. 00:19:32 Speaker 1: Do we want to talk about extra innings? 00:19:35 Speaker 2: Dude. By the way, before we do that, let me just say on the Michael Arroyo topic about maybe we'll see him later in September, I would say anytime because, well, Weston Wilson is still playing. That is... easily a spot Michael Arroyo can take. I know Michael Arroyo doesn't really have a defensive position. We already talked about this on a different podcast. Weston Wilson, in an extremely small sample, has been one of the worst defenders in Major League Baseball. You can't tell me. And he's a righty. 00:20:08 Speaker 1: Not even on a rate basis. He's, like, overall cumulative one of the worst. Oh, on a rate basis, he's the worst. 00:20:16 Speaker 2: But, yeah. Like, you can't tell me Arroyo would be worse than that. 00:20:21 Speaker 1: No, I don't think so. 00:20:22 Speaker 2: No. But, 2027. We can talk about other... Yeah, great. We can talk about other aspects of Monday because it wasn't... Julio is going to be the poster child of Monday's loss, just like Bazzardo was from the Saturday loss in Toronto. But there are a lot of other things that went into that loss, including, Teej, what went down in the bullpen on Monday night. You can highlight what you typed out to me on Monday during the game, but I'll even say before that, how many more times is Dan going to run Bazzardo out there in leverage spots? I mean, he has just proven time after time over the last few weeks, like, can't be trusted in those spots. 00:21:01 Speaker 1: He can't. Who else are you going to put out there? 00:21:05 Speaker 2: I don't know. Did you... I mean... Right. Like, what. 00:21:09 Speaker 1: Could you name the Mariner's Arms you currently trust? 00:21:15 Speaker 2: Munoz, Spire, I guess. I guess Ferrer. 00:21:19 Speaker 1: Gee, I don't trust Ferrer right now. 00:21:21 Speaker 2: I mean, listen, I'm grasping for straws here. Munoz and Spire. 00:21:26 Speaker 1: That doesn't leave you, like, a whole lot of flexibility. Because you also kind of need those... Like, what if... What if your starter does what they've done on the road for much of the last couple months and they go like five innings? You get a high leverage spot in the seventh inning. All of a sudden you're asking Gabe and Mooney to pitch more than they normally do. And you do that too much, they get tired and then they're unreliable too. Yeah. I would love to use Andres Munoz in all these high leverage situations. But you know they're not going to do that. 00:21:56 Speaker 2: Okay, how about using Cooper Criswell in his first day off the IL in the game in the 10th inning with a runner on second base to start— Well. 00:22:03 Speaker 1: He wasn't supposed to pitch if they could just hold on to the damn lead. 00:22:07 Speaker 2: Well, I guess, but then to put him in that spot his first day off the IL against his former team and then purposely load the bases when he's not throwing strikes was something. 00:22:21 Speaker 1: Or you could talk about the top half of the 10th inning, Lyle, which might have been worse process-wise than the bottom of the 10th inning, where Taylor Ward was scheduled to come up in the top of the 10th inning. They pinch hit Victor Robles with a ghost runner on second base. 00:22:40 Speaker 2: Well, actually, hang on. Did Robles pinch run for Ward in that game? He may have. Or did he pinch hit? I, I, so I think Ward may have pinned, or Robles may have pinch run. Because if it was a pinch hit decision, that makes no sense. I think he may have. 00:23:01 Speaker 1: See, so would that have been in the eighth inning? 00:23:03 Speaker 2: Yeah, here. It was Rodden, now Rodden replaced Canzone. I don't know, whatever. Okay, keep going. So. 00:23:17 Speaker 1: I'm going to try and double check this as I talk. So it ended up with Victor Robles at the plate with the ghost runner on second base, nobody out. Dan decides to sacrifice bunt the runner over to third base. So you give away a free out. Here's the problem with this situation. Who's on the mound? Actually, no, I think you're right. Robles was already in the game at that point. 00:23:45 Speaker 2: Yeah, so he came in as a defensive replacement. That's what it was. 00:23:48 Speaker 1: Okay, so this only makes it slightly less worse. So you have Victor Robles at the plate with Josh Kneeler at second base. They decide to sacrifice Bunt and give up and out. If you had like Cal Raleigh and Julio Rodriguez behind in that scenario, and you're trying to play for a run, which playing for a run in Fenway Park when your pitchers have the worst ERA in baseball the last month, it's probably not the strategy I would go with, but that's clearly what they were trying to do. The problem is Cal and Julio weren't due up next. I mean, I don't even know if you could use Cal or Julio. Let's say Randy and Dom can zone. That's a better 2026 example. The problem is Aroldis Chapman was on the mound. And they had Cole Young left on left at 22 years old. And then our guy Weston Wilson due up after that. So it's like we're going to give up and out so that Cole Young can go left on left with probably the greatest left-handed reliever of all time. 00:24:45 Speaker 2: And Weston Wilson. 00:24:48 Speaker 1: And shocker, they didn't score a run. 00:24:51 Speaker 2: Incredible. 00:24:52 Speaker 1: So they couldn't pitch, and then situationally in the top of the 10th inning when they're trying to bail themselves out, they inexplicably give away an out for free, are only trying to play for one run, and then try to play for one run with your worst players coming up. Yeah. 00:25:08 Speaker 2: Also, isn't it amazing that Taylor Ward's at a point where He has been such a liability at the plate that they're actually subbing him out in the field on defense. I understand the idea of getting better defenders in there in the ninth inning, but there's certain guys you just never sub out with the idea that you may need their bat if something goes awry. Well, Taylor Ward was supposed to be your headline trade deadline acquisition. Teej, as we sit here recording on September 1st, his OPS plus in Seattle is 10. 00:25:40 Speaker 1: Dude, Rob Raff Snyder crushes that number. 00:25:43 Speaker 2: Dude, Rob Raff Snyder has been a Hall of Famer compared to Taylor Ward. 00:25:48 Speaker 1: Rob Raff Snyder's for the season was. 00:25:51 Speaker 2: Way better than that. 00:25:52 Speaker 1: Retired now, Rob Raff Snyder. Congratulations. 00:25:54 Speaker 2: It was. 00:25:56 Speaker 1: 35. 00:25:58 Speaker 2: That's 25% better than the guy that the Mariners tabbed their trade deadline headline acquisition. 00:26:08 Speaker 1: This will come to a larger point for the second half of this podcast for Lyle and I are going to kind of flash out an idea we brought up on a, on Monday's podcast. But now in the last two seasons, we've seen both sides of the pendulum when it comes to relying on the trade deadline for your being your acquisition period, you can have a best case scenario where everything falls in your lap and you get a ton of production. And then you could get Taylor Ward and his 10 OPS plus and Sir Anthony Dominguez instead. 00:26:40 Speaker 2: Yep. You cannot plan your, you cannot plan your roster building around the trade deadline. Sorry. It's just too unreliable. We talked about that already. Yeah. 00:26:54 Speaker 1: Okay, speaking of that conversation, let's get to that conversation. But before that, I want to tell you guys about Emerald Queen Casino's upcoming lineup of shows. Bobby Lee visits EQC on September 4th. Joe Coy live on September 5th. Tower of Power on September 10th. And Phil Collins story. on September 17th. Get your tickets today at emeraldqueen.com. Emerald Queen Casino is the entertainment capital of the Northwest. And while you're there, you can check out Slough Hall Steakhouse. Rooftop dining at Emerald Queen Casino gives you mountain to sound views, paired with premium steaks and creative cocktails. You'll just have to see it to believe it. Come by Friday and Sunday from 4 to 10 p.m. and Saturday from 4 to 11 p.m. Get your reservation today on OpenTable or by calling 253-441-3101. That's 253-441-3101. So Lyle was pretty firm on Monday's episode. He said, you know what? I've come to the conclusion the Mariners cannot leave the 26-27 offseason without another middle-of-the-order bat. This core alone is not getting the job done. So the mission Lau and I are on this episode is to find which bat the Mariners should go get this offseason to compliment Julio, Cal, and whoever else might be on this roster next year. 00:28:14 Speaker 2: So. I think we need to make something clear. They need a middle of the order bat right now on this team. If Randy leaves, you need two, because you need an outfielder to replace Randy, and then you still need one more in addition to that. So probably an infielder and an outfielder. And if you don't get that, I'm going to call this offseason a failure, because you're not going to have enough pieces in position to be a competent enough offense. You're just not. I talked about this a lot on Monday's podcast, and I talked about it here on social media on Tuesday, but... People need to accept who Julio is as an offensive player at this point, especially the Seattle Mariners, which kind of goes back to what we were talking about on Monday about is this current regime too tied to its own players, too emotionally invested in its own players to really look in the mirror and say, we need to make these changes. Is that fair? 00:29:12 Speaker 1: Totally fair. 00:29:13 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. 00:29:14 Speaker 1: I think we need to look better than competent, Lyle. The team needs to be a good team at scoring runs like they were last year. That's what they need to be. 00:29:22 Speaker 2: Correct. And to do that, you need more than trying to build your lineup through Julio and Cal. And I'm not going to listen to that anymore. I'm not. And I don't think other fans should either about, well, we have Julio, so we believe in our offense and we believe in the core of this roster because they're going to get it done when in reality... this is going to be the third season in a row Julio Rodriguez has not put up an OPS of 800 or better. This is the third season in a row it's going to be below 800. If you look at the last three seasons, 24, 25, and 26, Julio's WRC plus in that time is 116. That ranks among the likes of Ian Happ, Manny Machado, who's starting to age. Again, not prime Manny Machado, current Manny Machado. Handful of other guys, too, who would not be considered superstars by any stretch. I mean, if you want a few of those other names, maybe I lost the list. But it's guys like Ian Happ. It's guys like Cody Bellinger. Bellinger was on the list. It is not superstars. Julio Rodriguez is a good player, and this team needs him to go accomplish the ultimate goal and reach the mountaintop. But to continue to treat him as an aircraft carrier the same way that the Diamondbacks treat Corbin Carroll or the Royals treat Bobby Witt Jr. or the Cubs are treating PCA, who's probably going to win the MVP this year, is wrong. I won't... I won't quite call it malpractice, but it's wrong. And if the Mariners spin that narrative to people this offseason and don't do enough offensively and say, well, we believe in our core roster and Julio and Cal, well, here's a three-year rolling sample saying Julio is exactly not the guy that you're trying to put him on the pedestal to be. So I'm not listening to that narrative anymore. Julio changes something come 27 and actually hits his full stride and is an MVP finalist? Awesome. That'd be amazing. relying on that going into 2027 at this point, you better not spin people on that narrative because it's wrong. 00:31:19 Speaker 1: And someone could come back to us and say, well, guys, Cal Raleigh could be better next year. And he absolutely could be. If Cal got back to a 35 to 40 homer catcher, that would be a big help. But why not have more? Why not be a good offensive team? You don't need to be the best. Can you just be good? Can you be top 10 in runs scored in Major League Baseball? Listen to this stat that Aaron Levine put out. I couldn't believe this while I was reading it because the Mariners have such a... The Mariners' pitching staff has just been horrendous this year. It's not been good enough. But Aaron Levine was talking about this year. The Mariners are 47-18 when they score four runs or more, but 17-55 when they don't. The league average for runs per game this year is 4.46 runs per game. If the Mariners... were just an average team at scoring runs, they would be a 100-win team this year. 00:32:15 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:32:16 Speaker 1: This team, despite all their flaws, 100 wins. 00:32:20 Speaker 2: And this team, that's as bad as offensively as you can draw up, is about to lose its best offensive player. We can have the conversation all we want about should they keep Randy? Should they let Randy go? Should they just take the qualifying offer? Or should they get the qualifying offer draft pick? I don't see a world. Randy's back here next year. Mariners aren't going to want to pay him the money. He's going to be looking for a hundred million dollars. He's a Scott Boris client. He prefers the East coast. I just don't see a world where he's back here, guys. I hate to be the bearer of bad news. So because of that, this offense already has to replace Randy or Rosa Raina. And there's still a middle of the order bat short. So they need two guys and it's probably going to take a free agent signing in a trade. 00:33:05 Speaker 1: Here's what I'm thinking. This is how, if you still need to be sales pitched on this, let me lay it out like this. The Mariners, I think this year more than any other year, have built their offense on streaky players for the majority of the season without an infusion of offense in the middle of the season, like last year at the trade deadline. Like Cal's streaky, Julio's streaky, Randy's not really been streaky this year, he's just always been good. But the two main guys in the middle of that lineup have been on the coldest side of their streak possible this year, and it is really, really hurt the Mariners baseball team. So why not, with the available resources you have to you, you have available to you, go out and get another bat. And it's okay because we're also five years in to both Cal and Julio being the two best offensive players in your lineup on a day-to-day basis. And the Mariners have maxed out at 90 wins and they haven't gone to the World Series. So if you want to hit that mark with this pitching staff, given they start pitching better, then you're probably going to need to add somebody else. 00:34:10 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:34:10 Speaker 1: That just, you get frustrated at Jerry and Justin and Dan, rightfully so. You should be. But then we could also get mad. Like you gotta, you gotta improve the talent on the field as well. A hundred percent agree. 00:34:23 Speaker 2: A lot of that goes up to John Stanton and Chris Larson. Like they better pay up. 00:34:26 Speaker 1: Oh, a hundred percent. I, they should be at the top of that list of blame for the reason. There's not better players on this roster. I think if Jerry DePoto had the ability to, to add $ 40 million worth of salary and put up an aircraft carrier of a player in the middle of his lineup, I think he would. He'd give it a shot at least. Maybe it wouldn't work out, but he'd try. Maybe he would have been the guy to sign Bo Bichette, and the Mariners would look stupid this offseason, and they don't have Steve Cohen's ultimate wealth to just bury that contract. 00:34:56 Speaker 2: Sure. 00:34:57 Speaker 1: But you'd at least try. 00:34:58 Speaker 2: And again, before we get into the actual players, Nobody, including me, nobody is saying Julio Rodriguez is a bad baseball player. He's not. The people saying that online are crazy. He's a very, very good baseball player. And this team needs him. Needs him desperately if they want to reach the ultimate goal and get to the mountaintop. But continuing to treat him like an aircraft carrier is not fair to him. And it's putting unrealistic expectations on your roster and on what you want your fans to believe. Just treat him how he is. Oh, you gave him a big contract, so now you're stuck with it? You're not stuck with it. You have a really good player on your hands. But just because you give him a big contract doesn't mean you can't go out and give out others. Accept who he is as an offensive player. Understand what his ceiling is, what his strengths are, and what his weaknesses are. And then go add additional middle-of-the-order talent to your roster to actually put this thing over the top. Stop putting all this... all this expectation on Julio that maybe he can't handle and maybe isn't the type of player he is. 00:36:06 Speaker 1: And if you don't have as much budget as you would want, which again is kind of bullshit if you don't have that much more budget, but if like budget is really an issue with this, then clear some future money. You can do that. 00:36:20 Speaker 2: Guys, I'm going to be real. The Mariners rank about 16th in the league in payroll, so the idea they can't add budget is not real. I know. 00:36:29 Speaker 1: It's a load of shit, but if that's the pushback and you have to work around it, it is possible. 00:36:37 Speaker 2: I was also going to say, the second point to that that I was going to hit was, even in spite of all that, The ideas we're about to lay out here can absolutely be done within their budget, because if you take Randy's money off the books, who's making near 20 million bucks this year, you can make a free agent signing for similar money. And if you're going to trade a starter for a controllable bat, it should be similar enough salaries. You can do this within their budget. 00:37:06 Speaker 1: We're not even talking about, yeah, going out and. Adding $ 40 million of salary. I think the most expensive player we have pitched is probably about a $ 20 million player this offseason. 00:37:17 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:37:18 Speaker 1: But that's about what Randy's going to make, if not more. 00:37:21 Speaker 2: Yeah. Let's get into some of the names. Where do you want to start? 00:37:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's start with you. It's your idea. Who do you want? Well. 00:37:32 Speaker 2: We threw names together as a tandem. Do you want me to just pick anybody or you want me to. 00:37:37 Speaker 1: Pick a name? Let's let's start somewhere. 00:37:39 Speaker 2: All right. Let's start with the bucket of free agents because the Mariners probably need to sign one free agent and they're going to need to make one trade. You need an outfielder and an infielder. This free agent market sucks. It is not a good class, especially for bats. But if you want to go target an offensive player on the free agent market this offseason, it is probably coming from the north side. It is probably coming from the north side of Chicago. That leaves two guys. Let's start with the one that would make the most sense. Right-handed bat, true middle-of-the-order guy, power, and has the potential to actually be able to hit in this ballpark given he's hit in Chicago. Say a Suzuki. 00:38:15 Speaker 1: He's the best bat you could go out there and get this offseason. And at least this year he's been a very complete player. He might win the gold glove like actually on merit this year in right field. He's been that good overall, like across the board overall. and his offensive floor is much higher than the other guy we'll talk about, Ian Happ, on a year-to-year basis in Chicago, the number's been well over 120, if not 130 WRC +, on a year-over-year basis. If you want the simple idea of, we need to put somebody in the middle of this lineup to be better than Julio Rodriguez offensively, on a year-to-year basis, it's Seiya Suzuki. Like, that's the guy. I don't think there's any other guy that we're going to highlight that you could year over year say, this guy 100% is going to be better than what Julio is. I think Seiya's a guy where if you're putting him in this lineup and you're going out there and you're signing him, he'll be 32. He's 32 this year, I think. That's the kind of guy you put in the middle of your lineup. You're like, all right, we did actually get that middle-of-the-order bat we wanted. Not oh, if things work out and things are aligning the right way and this player gets hot and he stays healthy, then... this could be the addition we want. No, you signed Seiya. This is your guy. Yes. 00:39:35 Speaker 2: Well, it's your free agent guy. You still got to go trade for somebody. But yeah, there are not a ton of holes in Seiya's game offensively. There's not a specific pitch he struggles with, crushes fastballs, doesn't get eaten alive by off-speed. Right-handed bat for a team that already needs right-handed bats to begin with and is going to lose your best one in Randy. I mean, say as a guy that you can absolutely pencil into the middle of the order as a right-handed bat. He has crushed lefties this year, by the way. He's got a 1,000 OPS against Southpaws. I would pay what it takes to go get this guy. He's going to be the premier name on the market for bats. That's not Randy Rosarena. And you very, very clearly need middle of the order help. Go get him. 00:40:20 Speaker 1: Him and Ian Happ are probably going to cost the same price, I would think. So if we want to talk about Happ, the offensive floor is a little lower. I think the offensive ceiling is a little lower. He's a switch hitter instead of Seiya just being a right-handed hitter. Ian Happ's a little bit more complete of an overall player. He's a better defender year over year in the outfield than Seiya Suzuki is. They're both the exact same age. So you kind of want to... His war is a little higher too. I think Seiya's usually between like one to three... Ian Happ is always over two every year. You're going to get more value on the stat sheet with Ian Happ with everything he brings to the table. So it honestly just depends what your preference is. If you're someone who thinks, yes, the Mariners need another middle of the order bat, but they also need to get better at other things like defense. I totally see the sales pitch for Ian Happ. Like I don't believe say a Suzuki on a year to year basis is going to be a great defender because he was a bad defender the previous two seasons before this one, as opposed to this year when he's been a good defender. But Ian Happ, you can be pretty confident that he's actually going to make your outfield better defensively. And God forbid you actually gain a run or two by outfield defense. 00:41:35 Speaker 2: Who would have thought? 00:41:36 Speaker 1: So Ian Happ would be your guy with that. 00:41:38 Speaker 2: If you sign Ian Happ, he is your left fielder every single day. If you sign Seiya Suzuki, either you teach him left field or Canzone and Laz are going to start playing more left field because you want Seiya to play right and that's his natural position. There would be some things you'd have to move around. Seiya Suzuki hasn't played a ton of left field in his career, but you could make it work. However, if you sign Ian Happ because you prioritize athleticism and defense and just overall value of baseball player a little bit more than the pure offense of Seiya Suzuki, you then Ian Happ would be your guy. And I really like Ian Happ. I think Ian Happ has won the gold glove in left field in four consecutive seasons. I'm not sure he's going to win it this year, but you know he's going to be a staple out there for you. And while he's not going to possess the power that Seah has, he's still a 20 home run a year guy who can get on base a little bit and he draws his walks enough. And again, he's going to play quality defense and hit from both sides of the plate. one of those guys needs to be on this roster next year. Whether you prioritize the athleticism or prioritize the pure bad of Seiya Suzuki, one of those guys needs to be in your outfield next year. 00:42:49 Speaker 1: I think there's a third option here. I think he's by far the third option for both of us, but it is still an option. I would put him in the same bucket, talent level and salary wise as both Ian Happ and Seiya Suzuki, and that's going to be Gleyber Torres. He'll be a free agent this offseason. He doesn't have as complete of an offensive profile, but He's essentially the same offensive player in his career that Ian Happ has been. So we can't hold him to a different standard when the career numbers say that. There's some batted ball data that doesn't favor him quite as much. He does not hit the ball hard at all. But you do need an infielder. You need an infielder and an outfielder. So you might as well tackle one where you can get it. And Gleyber Torres, if you were to sign him, you could have him play third. Need a third baseman next year. You don't really have a penciled-in third baseman, Brandon Donovan, I guess. But otherwise, it wouldn't be that hard to sign Gleyber Torres and tell Brandon Donovan to go to the outfield in that kind of sense. So then you have Gleyber at third, Colt at short, if he's healthy, Cole Young at second, Josh Kneeler at first base. 00:43:56 Speaker 2: And Gleyber Torres on defense, pretty solid. Yeah, and then Donovan at left. He just doesn't feel like a guy that fixes... anything ultra significantly, but you're right. You, you need two bats. You need an outfielder and an infielder. And he is a right-handed bat who is productive enough and solid enough on defense who should be able to help you. So sure. He's the third option, but he's an option. 00:44:18 Speaker 1: If three, a great approach at the plate, a three 65 on base percentage. 00:44:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, like there's, there's positives to Gleyber Torres, but to your point, yeah, he just doesn't hit the ball hard. He doesn't have a great arm, which is another reason I worry about him playing third base. 00:44:33 Speaker 1: But yeah, Neither did Kyle Seager. 00:44:35 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fair. So, not a perfect player. He's certainly not going to do much for you with his speed or on the base pads, but if you whiff on the first two and you need another infielder, then okay, that could be your guy. 00:44:51 Speaker 1: And he's not, he's definitely not going to wow you. He could be like, wow, we have Gleyber Torres, our offense is fixed. He's going to, he's going to hit cleanup. No, he's, he's not. Probably be your leadoff hitter though. And I think he might be in the lineup more often than Brandon Van Will. 00:45:07 Speaker 2: Say is the guy here. You want to significantly improve your offense and really put a jolt into this lineup. He's the guy. That's who's at the top of my list. I really like Ian Happ. I would be very happy with Ian Happ. But if you're serious about improving this offense, it's Saya. 00:45:23 Speaker 1: That's the free agent. What about trade? 00:45:26 Speaker 2: Okay, so let's do this exercise in a couple different ways. Let's say the Mariners sign one of the outfielders. Let's say it's either Glaber, or sorry, not Glaber. Let's say it's either Seah or it's Ian Happ. Your eyes go to the infielders. And I've listed out three different infielders, all of which I think are very intriguing names that the Mariners could absolutely go after this winter. I'll start with the one that's a little bit more far-fetched first, but it's the most fun name. What are you going to say? 00:45:56 Speaker 1: Does it have to be an outfielder and an infielder? Could you do two outfielders? 00:46:01 Speaker 2: I feel like you could, I guess you could, but does that create a potential log jam for the Mariners? So if you were to sign two outfielders, if it's say and somebody else, and then you have Julio and center, then you have Dom and Laz in the DH slash bench spot. I guess you could do that, but. 00:46:20 Speaker 1: You could, especially if you have a, you know, right. Do you want to get off their feet in the outfield? You could have Laz. I just wouldn't go into next season, prioritizing, prioritizing, prioritizing Laz if you're adding, say, a Suzuki and one of these other guys to your outfield? Because, like, again, what is the goal? 00:46:42 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not the one sitting here prioritizing, but how do the Mariners go about their operation? I don't know. 00:46:50 Speaker 1: It would be easiest to have an outfielder and an infielder. I would say it's not impossible to have two outfielders, though. 00:46:55 Speaker 2: You can make it work. It's not, but the most likely scenario is they get one of each. So there is an outfielder that's very intriguing that we'll talk about. We can do him at the end. But the three infielders I'm going to talk about are all names that would significantly improve this team, this offense, and should get fans fired up. I will start with the most far-fetched one first. And I'm skeptical about this one happening, but there's no reason the Mariners shouldn't be trying. And that is going and trading for Gunnar Henderson from the Orioles. Has Gunnar Henderson been a model of consistency at this point? No, you'd be taking a little bit of a gamble on him because in the last three years, he's gone from arguably the best shortstop in the game to a very solid, sorry, not solid, a very, very good shortstop who put up five and a half wins last year to a very solid shortstop this year who still may hit 30 homers, but is having the worst year of his career. His OPS is only about 715. I'm also banking on the idea that this is about the floor for Gunnar. And he will bounce and he will improve on this, not be this guy. 00:47:55 Speaker 1: You don't have to convince me on this one. I would be all in for something like this. Convincing the Orioles to sell low on their shortstop would be a different story. 00:48:06 Speaker 2: So let's be clear on this trade package because the Mariners would have to trade something to go get one of these infielders. And it's probably trading a starting pitcher and the pitcher they need to be going and putting on the trade market is George Kirby. He's got two years of control. There's not signs pointing to an extension. He's the same guy five years in who doesn't have an out pitch. He struggles on the road. He's in the zone too often. But he has a very high floor as a pitcher who is going to be a 2-3 win guy just about every season at the very least. And there's a lot of teams that need starting pitching that would heavily value that. Now, maybe George Kirby alone isn't enough for Gunnar Henderson. But if the Mariners were to trade George Kirby and a good prospect, maybe then the Orioles listen. Maybe it's George Kirby, a good prospect, and a lottery ticket prospect. And then the Orioles listen. I'm not saying they say yes for this. I'm not saying they go for this. They may just shut that all down. But there's no reason the Mariners shouldn't be calling and trying. Because Gunnar Henderson is a middle-of-the-order bat. That is a guy who raises the ceiling of this team. 00:49:11 Speaker 1: It's a gamble. Because then if he turns around and he's the same player he is in 2026 as he is in 2027, then the Mariners... give up a whole lot for not much sure much production but you do have to gamble at this point like the Mariners are in gamble mode. 00:49:29 Speaker 2: And you know what TJ I'm just going to be totally honest I'm just not going to be heartbroken at this point about losing George Kirby he For whatever reason, he's just the pitcher that drives me a little crazy in this rotation because he has all the talent in the world to be such a special arm, and he has never taken the jump that the other guys in the rotation have taken at points. And he just, again, has never developed an out pitch, and he just struggles on the road constantly. And I think he has the most value. Some people might sit here and say, well, you should trade Bryce Miller. Bryce Miller's not going to have the same value as George Kirby. So... You would probably have to give up more than Kirby for Gunner because Gunner's got three years of control and Kirby has two. But I would be doing this. And if you quote-unquote gamble and it goes against you, well, then what? You don't have Kirby in your rotation, but guess what? Here's what it looks like. It's Logan Gilbert, Brian Wu, Emerson Hancock, Kate Anderson, and Ryan Sloan with Bryce Miller and Logan Evans as potentially the sixth and seventh guys. You can give up another starter. You can take the gamble. You can. 00:50:35 Speaker 1: Well, maybe you have to trade one of those pitching prospects you have to get this deal done. Like, would you do this deal if the Orioles like for three years of Gunnar Henderson, we want George Kirby and Ryan Sloan? 00:50:49 Speaker 2: Well, no. And the Mariners aren't doing that. 00:50:52 Speaker 1: Well, again, the Orioles aren't trading Gunnar Henderson. 00:50:57 Speaker 2: I don't think the Mariners would give up two pitchers that they'd be relying on in the rotation. That's why I say if you were going to trade Kirby and one of your hitting prospects and maybe one more lottery ticket, something like that. And what I mean by one of your hitting prospects is one of your good ones, whether it's Laz, whether it's Farmelo, whether it's Luke Stevenson, like whoever the Orioles like. Yeah, I mean, you know what, man? Even if it was Felning at this point, yeah, like I'm listening on that because... You cannot continue to push your date down the road of when you're going to win. If it took Kirby and Fellain, it might hurt. I'd do it. 00:51:37 Speaker 1: I'd do that in a heartbeat. 00:51:38 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:51:39 Speaker 1: Convincing the Orioles is definitely a different strategy, but it does not hurt to try. And given the state the Orioles are in right now, another reason you might have to give up one of your top tier pitching prospects is because the Orioles are like, they're not like kind of surfing in the middle. They're like going down again. So they might want someone that has more control than just the two years of George Kirby. What if you could get him for, what if you traded Cade instead? 00:52:09 Speaker 2: I don't think they're doing that. 00:52:11 Speaker 1: Well, again, it's like the Orioles probably aren't trading Gunnar Henderson, so you'd have to get uncomfortable. 00:52:17 Speaker 2: Sorry. Yeah. 00:52:21 Speaker 1: Maybe the Orioles don't want two years of George Kirby for three years of Gunnar Henderson. How about six years of Kate Anderson? 00:52:28 Speaker 2: Sure. I mean, I would say Emerson Hancock because he has much more control and the Mariners have floated him out there. I mean, him with other prospects. But I don't know if the Orioles would be in on that either. 00:52:41 Speaker 1: Well, to get a player like Gunnar, you're going to have to give up quite a lot. 00:52:45 Speaker 2: He is the pie-in-the-sky one, and it's going to be the hardest one, not just because he's the biggest star, but the Mariners and Orioles have a very tough time trading. I don't think those two organizations see eye-to-eye on value very often. So there's two other names that would be a little bit more realistic that would still help this offense and would be absolute upgrades for the Mariners going forward. Here's another name, Indivision. Zach Netto of the Los Angeles Angels, who, by the way, I now think is a possibility because Artie Moreno no longer owns the Angels. As of Tuesday sitting here recording, Stan Kroenke is now the owner of the Los Angeles Angels. And because of that, I think the Mariners could open up the possibility of trading in Anaheim. Because Jerry and Artie Moreno and the Angels had a bad relationship. It was not an amicable split when Jerry left. And I think there was bad blood between the two sides for a long time. But Perry Manazian's no longer there. He wasn't even the guy that, you know, was there when Jerry left. So I don't even think it really has to do with him. But they have a new front office. They have new ownership. It's hard to trade in division regardless. But maybe this opens up some discussion. And if it does, then I would be very much... trying to poach Zach Netto away from Anaheim into Seattle. 00:54:01 Speaker 1: Before I actually talk about the player, can we give a hand to Artie Moreno? Yes. I mean, this man managed to run that franchise into the absolute ground. I mean, he could not have been worse. He took this great foundation of a World Series winning culture and talent pool and essentially flushed it all down the toilet to where he even lands in two of maybe the 15 greatest players of all time, right into his lap, misses the playoffs every season with those two players, and then sells his team and gets a 22% return. 00:54:37 Speaker 2: On his investment. By the way, not just the two of the 15 greatest players of all time, because you're talking about Trout and Shohei, but also, while he might not have been in his absolute peak, you also had a top five home run hitter of all time also on those teams in Albert Pujols and never made the playoffs. And he did it. 00:54:59 Speaker 1: Like, he wasn't cheap. Well, he wasn't cheap with his payroll. I think he was cheap in other areas. But he spent plenty of money on players. That wasn't an issue, bringing talent in. But he managed to just be so horrendous at his job that people are actively trying to boot him out. And now he finally sells the team. And he gets a 22% return on investment. Like, could you think of any job ever where you're just dog shit at what you do? 00:55:30 Speaker 2: You are horrendous. And then you quit your job and you. 00:55:34 Speaker 1: Get like a buyout of 22 times worth your annual salary? Not the same thing, but close enough. Maybe, how about this? Let's do this. 00:55:43 Speaker 2: You buy a Rolex. 00:55:45 Speaker 1: You have this nice shiny watch. It's going to appreciate over time. But all you do is, you know, drop it on the floor. Get a lot of dirt on it all the time. You accidentally slam your car door into your wrist one time and it shatters the screen. Someone comes along and is like, hey man, I love your Rolex. How about you bought it for $ 1, 000? How about $ 22, 000? That's what just fucking happened. 00:56:15 Speaker 2: It's a joke. 00:56:16 Speaker 1: And the rest of us normal people never get to experience something like that with our money. 00:56:24 Speaker 2: Does anybody in this world truly need a billion dollars? I'm not sure they do. 00:56:28 Speaker 1: Artie Moreno proves, no, you don't need a billion dollars. And now he has four. 00:56:33 Speaker 2: Dude, $ 4 billion he sold it for. It's nuts. The only other thing I can even think of about being so bad at your job and then getting, I don't know, four times the money once you leave is maybe Urban Meyer when he was with the Jaguars, the worst NFL head coaching tenure of all time, but he got paid a ton of money. 00:56:51 Speaker 1: Jimbo Fisher. Like being a college football head coach might be the best example. 00:56:55 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:56:56 Speaker 1: You get hired. You are absolute shit. And then the school's like, here's a hundred million dollars to not work. You're like, great. 00:57:03 Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyway, the Mariners should get Zach Netto. Zach Netto is a 20 plus home run hitting shortstop. Who's not perfect, but he is a right-handed hitting shortstop. Middle infielder who at times has played very, very good defense in his career, who's got real club control because he's not a free agent for three more seasons. And the Mariners could really do a lot with that. 00:57:31 Speaker 1: He's a good player. This is where we kind of stray away from. Is this the middle of the order bat that's going to raise the Mariners offense up another rung? I don't know, like Zach Netto gives off very streaky vibes as a baseball player. This year he's striking out almost 31% of the time and walking nine. Productive with a 750 OPS because he's got that power. But there's a lot of other things offensively he's not like great at. So in this example, right, are we still trading George Kirby for Zach Netto? 00:58:05 Speaker 2: I mean, oh, by the way, let me just backtrack something. Gunner's got two years before he's a free agent. So him and Kirby actually have the same club control. My bad on that. Netto has three. So I actually think it wouldn't cost Cater Sloan for Gunnar. Anyway, I would say that, yes, this is probably what it would take to go get Zach Netto is trading one of your starting pitchers. And again, I'd still do it. You have eight starting pitchers for next year. And there's no signs to Kirby signing an extension. And I'm not sure I'd want to pay him that money anyway. Is Zach Netto a perfect player? No, because you're right. This year specifically, he got off to a cold start and he struck out a bunch and he hasn't had his best season in the field. But all that being said, man, by baseball reference, you're talking about the third season in a row Zach Netto is about to put up four wins. He put up five in both 24 and 25 and he's about to put up four this year. Would I trade George Kirby for Zach Netto? Yes, because again, this is all part of a contingency plan that relies on getting two bats on this roster. And when you look at the Mariners, if they were to get, say, a Suzuki in your outfield and Zach Netto in your infield, that is lengthening this lineup significantly. Look at the difference between Zach Netto and J.P. Crawford. I mean, Zach Netto, again, is a consistent 20 home run shortstop that at his best plays really good defense. 00:59:30 Speaker 1: So the difference this year by OPS between those two is about 90 points. So is a 90-point upgrade worth George Kirby? Honestly, let us know in the comments whether or not you think. Like, I would trade for Zach Nettle. I would aggressively trade for Zach Nettle. I think he would make your lineup better. George Kirby? 00:59:53 Speaker 2: I actually think that's a pretty fair package. I'm going to be real. Because Kirby's got his downsides. I think that's kind of where it steps. 01:00:00 Speaker 1: Over the line for me, especially in Division 2. 01:00:03 Speaker 2: Well, you're probably going to have to overpay to get him, so if you're viewing that as an overpay, then this is probably the right package. 01:00:10 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm trading George Kirby for Zach Netto. 01:00:15 Speaker 2: I'd probably do it. 01:00:15 Speaker 1: Okay. 01:00:18 Speaker 2: And again, Netto's currently on the wrong side of his... Netto's having his career worst year, and he's still going to put up Four wins. If you're buying that the player that Zach Netto's been in his first two years is more like the guy he was in 24 and 25, then he should be even better. Again, you're talking about a 760 to 780 OPS hitter who's like, that comes out to a 115 to 120 WRC +, who's in the middle of your infield. And again, it's 90 points of difference offensively between him and J.P. Crawford. And defensively, man, I mean, yeah, you're talking a whole lot. Yeah, and again, Netto has not had his best defensive season. He's not like the world's greatest defender, but he's better than JP. 01:01:08 Speaker 1: Bar's not very high on that. 01:01:09 Speaker 2: No. 01:01:10 Speaker 1: I mean, to. 01:01:12 Speaker 2: Talk about Zach Netto's defense, so he's interesting because his range is not very good. Like, he does not rank well in outs above average. By defensive run saves, he ranks very, very well. and even better in his previous two years, 24 and 25. He is a much better defender than JP. He is a much better hitter than JP. And I think that if you have a lineup that, if you were to map it out positionally, and it was, again, Cal at catcher, Naylor at first, Cole Young at second, Zach Netto at short, Cole Demerson at third, Brendan Donovan in left, Julio in center, Seah in right, and then either Dom or Laz DH-ing, yeah, that's a very, very lengthened lineup. 01:01:57 Speaker 1: Now, I know the third guy you're going to mention, I think, is the only shortstop in baseball to rank below J.P. Crawford defensively. 01:02:06 Speaker 2: Well, that would be C.J. Abrams. And while you have to be open-minded to adding offense to this roster because you need it, he is probably the guy that ranks third for me. I would want Netto before I'd want Abrams. 01:02:20 Speaker 1: Good, good hitter. He's been worth four and a half war this season. He's on pace for a career high. on baseball reference work. Cause I think he, he's the best, right? If you were to like right now out of Gunner, Neto and Abrams, compare them all as hitters. CJ Abrams is the best hitter of the group right now. He's got an eight 50 OPS this year. He's been really good. He has been a great hitter, but the difference is that the nationals moved him off of shortstop because his defense was that bad. 01:02:55 Speaker 2: So if you were to trade for C.J. Abrams, you would probably have to try to get him to learn to play third base because you're not going to move Cole Young off second. And if you're not going to have Abrams play short, then you probably need to have him try and play third and have Colt Emerson play short. And that could be a bit of a project. 01:03:11 Speaker 1: They tried moving someone to third base. It's worked great multiple times in a row. 01:03:17 Speaker 2: The other part of C.J. Abrams is this is far and away his best offensive season. I mean, he hasn't really had a full year like this before. And you have to factor in the defense. And you have to factor in... Look, we've talked to C.J. Abrams, and he was a really nice dude. I really liked him. But he's obviously... He's obviously had his things at points off the field, like going to the casino in the middle of the night, that not every team might love. 01:03:43 Speaker 1: So. 01:03:45 Speaker 1: So you're trading George Kirby for him? 01:03:49 Speaker 2: Again, I'm so... steadfast, and so hell-bent on getting two bats this winter, two legit bats, paired with your surplus of starting pitching, that if you can't do anything else, yes, I'm taking the gamble at this point. Because I just personally do not view the loss of George Kirby as that detrimental. You can replace him with other guys. Ryan Sloan's going to need a spot next year. You have seven big league starters that will be around next year. And you have to find a way to raise the ceiling of your offense. Again, this is third on my list. This is my third option. But he might also be the most realistic because he's not Gunnar Henderson and he's not in your division. So I'm open-minded. 01:04:33 Speaker 1: Jerry and company, when they called up Laz, are spamming the help us button. Lyle is spamming the trade George Kirby button right now. 01:04:40 Speaker 2: Let's do it. Do you want offense or not? 01:04:46 Speaker 1: If you could guarantee me that CJ Abrams is going to have an eight 50 OPS next year, George Kirby is a Washington national tomorrow. I'll drive him to the airport. 01:04:55 Speaker 2: I would agree with that. 01:04:57 Speaker 1: I'll drive him to DC if he wants to. 01:05:00 Speaker 2: If the nationals like somebody from the Mariners rotation better, that's not George Kirby. Okay. We can listen on that. I mean, it's, it's not going to be woo. It's not going to be Kate or Sloan, but if, you know, if they, as much as we like them, if they liked Emerson Hancock better and he has more club control, sure. Yeah. I'd listen on that. But I think Kirby likely has the most value of the three guys. They'd probably dangle out there and Bryce, George and Emerson. I mean, I guess Logan Gilbert could be floated out there too, but he feels like the guy that the Mariners would at least try to extend before opening day starts next year. And even if they don't want him in the fold for 2027, so. 01:05:40 Speaker 1: And only one year of control, so how much do you really get back for him if you decide to trade him? 01:05:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're probably not getting C.J. Abrams for Logan Gilbert. So we've got one more name, and this would be on the idea that the Mariners either acquire two outfielders or sign Gleyber Torres and trade for an outfielder. And that is? 01:05:59 Speaker 1: There was a name I did not send you. I'm going to do this one quickly because we already spent plenty of time on him in season. I still think you should consider trading for Wilson Contreras this offseason. Hmm. Because he's going to be 35. He has one year of control and then a club option. Do the Red Sox really want to risk his value being low, his value lowering a year after and he walks in free agency? Or you can tell the Red Sox, hey, we know you need starting pitching. You have a 920 OPS bat in the middle of your lineup that we want. 01:06:31 Speaker 2: Let's trade. If the Red Sox go sign Randy and signal they're going for it, I would have a hard time believing they'd trade Wilson Contreras. But like Gunnar, you should call and you should attempt it. So, yes. 01:06:43 Speaker 1: But they need starters. Like, where else are you going to get outs on the mound? 01:06:47 Speaker 2: Well, they'll get Garrett Crochet back next year, and then you have Ranger, and then you have Jake Bennett, and then you've got Peyton Tolley. Like, they're starting to form a rotation. 01:06:57 Speaker 1: But they might prefer George Kirby over those guys. Kirby's a little bit more proven than those guys. 01:07:03 Speaker 2: Would you trade two years of George Kirby for one year of Wilson Contreras? Yes. 01:07:09 Speaker 1: Okay. 920 OPS? Yeah. 01:07:10 Speaker 2: All right. I mean, look. 01:07:12 Speaker 1: Also, you have a club option. If he's great, you can keep him for another year. 01:07:17 Speaker 2: Look, I'm totally open-minded to Wilson Contreras. It's just, will the Red Sox do it? But yes, you should try. 01:07:24 Speaker 1: And it's a risk because he's going to be 35 next year when you trade for him. It's not young. And he plays a position that you currently have a $ 92. 5 million invested in. So maybe he'll just have to DH. And then there's questions about Dom. And then there's the questions about Laz that come along with it. But if Wilson Contreras puts up a 900 OPS, I don't care. That's literally what you want. Out of everyone we've talked about so far, that's the best bat. You want someone in the middle of that lineup who's better than everyone else around him? That's that guy right there. All right, the last one. You're going to call the Detroit Tigers and you're going to offer George Kirby for Riley Green. Make them say no. Riley Green plays the position you want. He's left fielder after Randy Leafs. Hits for power. He's had an 800 OPS essentially four seasons in a row. He's going to drive you crazy because he strikes out a ton. He's got platoon splits. But this is one of the best fits that you have out there that you could potentially get. 01:08:23 Speaker 2: People need to let the strikeouts thing go. Salk's always been big on this, and I totally agree with him. I think people get way too caught up in the strikeouts. The 2023 season as a whole drove people crazy because, yes, they did not live up to the expectations that were set in the preseason when they wrote win it all on their whiteboard in their preseason hype video. However, despite the 2023 Mariners having four different guys that struck out 30% of the time or more in Teoscar, Geno, Kelnick, and Mike Ford, What people forget about the 2023 Mariners is they were top 12 in runs scored. That team might have struck out, but they scored. runs. I don't care how you score them. I don't care how you get them. You can strike out however much you want. You need to score runs. And if Riley Green's going to strike out a bunch, but be an 800 OPS hitter, even if he's not great against lefties, because he's not, he's a little platoony, I still want him. 01:09:17 Speaker 1: I do too. And his platoon splits, like, think about this. 693 OPS he had this year against lefties. 01:09:29 Speaker 2: Is that, like, is it that bad? 01:09:32 Speaker 1: Is it that bad? 01:09:33 Speaker 2: No, that's roughly a 100 WRC +. You would live with that every day of the week, given what you watched from Rob Refsnyder or, God forbid, what Taylor Ward's done so far for the Mariners against lefties. Here, if you look at Ward's splits... well, I'd have to go on fan graphs and do it. But if he's got a 10 OPS plus as a Mariner, I can't imagine his numbers against lefties are good at all. 01:09:54 Speaker 1: It's, it's just not like you've had so much worse platoon players. And by the way, this is a quote unquote platoon player that you play every day. 01:10:02 Speaker 2: Which is what you want. 01:10:05 Speaker 1: You want everyday players. 01:10:07 Speaker 2: He's an all-star. He's at times one of the best hitters in the game. 01:10:10 Speaker 1: I also think that this is just like the closest value you will find out there on the open market. For a player like George Kirby, I think Riley Green is like the batter equivalent of George Kirby in terms of value. Exact same amount of control. Production is always good, but not the best. And they're both like two to four win players depending on the year. And if you could get that in a one-for-one swap, potentially you have to overpay just to get the Tigers to say yes, I don't see what you have to lose. Yeah. Taylor Ward currently, I mean, I guess this is for the whole year that I'm looking at. 01:10:52 Speaker 2: I know, I'm trying to find his numbers against lefties in 2026. But the problem with using fan graphs on your computer when you're trying to podcast is it slows everything down because fan graphs takes a lot of power on your computer. 01:11:07 Speaker 1: So we want August. God, let's see if I can get it here. 01:11:12 Speaker 2: I mean, I can get it on my computer. I just don't want everything to like, I don't want the podcast to be ruined. 01:11:18 Speaker 1: Dashboard. Do we get splits here? Look, no, I know. It's not been good. It's not been good. 01:11:24 Speaker 2: No, Taylor Ward has a 10 OPS plus with the Mariners. He's been bad against all sides of the plate. So one extra base hit. Correct. He has not been good again. Like Taylor Ward's. Think about this. Taylor Ward's OPS against lefties for the season this year is 724. And that's buoyed by a ridiculous April. So the rest of the year, he's probably worse than what Riley Green's been against lefties. 01:11:49 Speaker 1: In conclusion, out of all of these guys, which one, what's your, or give me your top three. 01:11:58 Speaker 2: I'll give you top three and then I'll give you the tandem. So I would say my top three go Gunner, even if it's a little far-fetched, Gunner, Sayah, Riley Green. And I would say if you were to get Gunnar Henderson and Seiya Suzuki, that would be the tandem that would be a match made in heaven. 01:12:21 Speaker 1: I'll go based on realistic. I'm going to say Seiya 1, Green 2, and then I'll go Gunnar 3. But let's pick a realistic tandem. I'll go with Green in the outfield and. 01:12:43 Speaker 1: I'll go green and Zach Netto. 01:12:45 Speaker 2: Well, I was going to say, I think Riley green is going to be hard to trade for. So if you want the most realistic tandem, okay. Get say, and then overpay for Zach Netto by trading George Kirby. Who's on here. 01:12:56 Speaker 1: Going to be the easiest to trade for CJ Abrams. Probably. 01:12:59 Speaker 2: Probably. 01:12:59 Speaker 1: Yeah. Ironically, the best OPS out of every player we named, except Wilson. 01:13:06 Speaker 2: Just the least proven, not a great defender, but again, this team loves the casino. He does. This team needs offense. 01:13:16 Speaker 1: Before we sign off, don't think it's good that the Mariners didn't trade for Cattell Marte this offseason. 01:13:22 Speaker 2: Oh, probably, yeah. And that would have involved giving up Cole Young and some of your top prospects. Yeah, that seems like a good idea. 01:13:29 Speaker 1: Could you imagine the podcast we'd be sitting here doing today? Same incident happened. A reporter asks Cattell Marte if he has a message for Diamondbacks fans. 01:13:40 Speaker 2: And he's like, no. 01:13:42 Speaker 1: No. I would blow a fucking gasket. 01:13:48 Speaker 2: Well, and then to top it all off, he turns around the next day and he's wearing a hat here on Tuesday that says, may the bridges I burn light the way. Brother, like, read the room, dude. Are you serious with that? 01:14:04 Speaker 1: It's just like a giant middle finger to all the people who pay your salary. 01:14:09 Speaker 2: Like, I guess we could include Quetel Marte in this discussion, but I don't think the Mariners are trading for him. 01:14:17 Speaker 1: I don't want to trade for him either. 01:14:19 Speaker 2: Well, if he had to miss two games a year. No, I'm kidding. You don't want him. 01:14:24 Speaker 1: What would be funny about that is that if Quetel Marte did all of this on the 2026 Mariners, it would be. just right in line with everything else that's happening. It's like, Oh, the star guy you traded for this off season has just gone to the casino is now nowhere to be seen. 01:14:42 Speaker 2: Only for him to come back. And then Dan Wilson's awarded him team captain. And then the player accepts no responsibility. Anyway, I will conclude it with this. Leave it in the comments of the names we threw out. We'll I'll quickly go through them here again. Gunner, Netto, Abrams, Seah, Happ, Glaber, Contreras, Riley Green. That's eight names. Tell us who you want. Tell us who you'd be skeptical on. Tell us who your tandem would be if you could pick. I'm really curious to hear, but I am very, very hellbent on the fact that the Mariners cannot just continue to run their offense through Cal and Julio, Julio specifically. Get these guys more help because you need to accept who these guys are as offensive players, specifically Julio. And then go act on it. I think it's fair. All right. That just about wraps up this edition of the Marine Layer Podcast. You guys know the drill. If you want to listen to the full-form podcast, you can do so wherever you get your audio pods. Go download these episodes if you're listening. Make sure to rate and review. Please leave it five stars. You can also... Hit subscribe if you're watching on YouTube. It helps a ton. Everything's on our website as well, marinelayerpod.com. Episodes are there. Podcast merch is there. Patreon's all there. That's marinelayerpod.com. And find us across social media. We're posting content every day on all of our platforms at marinelayerpod. That's TJ. I'm Lyle. As always, we thank you guys for tuning in. We'll talk to you soon.