Episode 456: Reacting To Another Flop Of A Weekend For Your 2026 Seattle Mariners

00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, just a reminder to all of you, we've got a couple live events coming up in the next, really, week and a half. Tuesday, so when you're listening to this podcast tomorrow, we have a podcast taping live that we're going to be doing with our friends at Moss Bay Hall in Kirkland. It's with our friends at Corona. We'll be watching some of the Mariners game there, too. We'll probably get there about halfway through the game, and then we'll be watching with all of you and taping the podcast afterwards. So mark that on your calendar for Tuesday. That'll be September 15th, Moss Bay Hall in Kirkland. And then the following Tuesday, we'll be doing another podcast taping live, this time at the Emerald Queen Casino. So we'll be back at EQC. We'll be, again, hanging out in the Sportsbook. We'll be recording a podcast there afterwards. We'll be there to hang out with you guys. So if you're in the area, whether you're on the east side, whether you're south of Seattle, and you want to come hang out with us and come out to one of our live events, we'd love to see you there. Mark it down on your calendars. Tuesday, September 15th, and Tuesday, September 22nd, 15th at Moss Bay Hall, 22nd at EQC. Can't wait to see you there. 00:01:02 Speaker 2: Welcome to episode number 456 of the Marine Layer podcast. The Mariners lose the series to the A's again. We'll react to another really, well, fitting series loss. 00:01:15 Speaker 1: Reminder to you guys, before we start this episode, just make sure you do us a big favor. Go download if you're listening. Make sure to rate and review. Please leave it five stars. Go hit subscribe on YouTube. And then if you're on our website, you can check everything out at marinelayerpod.com. Episodes are all there. Merch is there. Patreon is there. And then you can find us all across social media too, at marinelayerpod. 00:01:38 Speaker 2: Let's get it rolling. Let's get it rolling. And we welcome you to this episode of the Marine Layer Podcast, part of the Just Baseball Podcast Network. Recording here early Monday morning, September 14th. It has been a really, really long day for us. It started early in the morning in Miami, but we're back here in Seattle. Despite all these irregularities for us, the 2026 Mariners did another incredibly normal thing for themselves this season. And they lost another inexplicable series. 00:02:24 Speaker 1: And really inexplicable game on Sunday. Does it not feel like this is just now happening on the regular, with 12 games left in the season, where they just find the most ridiculous ways to lose baseball games? They really do find the most ridiculous ways to lose games. 00:02:43 Speaker 2: It's happening at a higher rate in the last two months, definitely. I wouldn't say it's really ramped up in the last two weeks. I think it's stood out more because their backs have truly been up against the wall and it's been do or die, as opposed to if the Mariners had a bad loss in August and we'd roll our eyes at Dan Wilson being like, well, just got to get them tomorrow. Technically, they still could go get them tomorrow and there's plenty of time. I mean, now there's not. So when you have an opportunity in front of you to beat one of the worst teams in baseball and you make yourself look really bad doing it, then it stands out. Yeah. And today was like, today was fitting. Especially given the guy who hit the walk-off home run, who had had a good series against you. Lawrence Butler takes Bryce Miller deep early in the game in his first at-bat. Then whether intentional or not, it's hard to say because Bryce was really all over the place today, gets drilled on his shoulder in his next at-bat, glares out at Bryce Miller, and then gets 101 down the dick from Andres Munoz and absolutely torches it. pretty fitting where someone on the opposing team essentially flips the double bird to the 2026 Mariners and laughs at them. Yeah. 00:04:02 Speaker 1: Well, and somebody that had really had a tough year in his own right and Lawrence Butler before the last few weeks, like Lawrence Butler is a good player, but it had been a tough go from a lot of this year. Now, of course he's turning it around in the final few weeks and what he's done against the Mariners in the last two series. Oh, he's been blazing hot against them. 00:04:21 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. So just really another fitting loss. And this loss on Sunday was another example of free passes coming back to hurt you. Somehow Bryce Miller walked five guys and none of them came around to score. Somehow, someway, Bryce was able to get away with that. Five walks in five innings. But then your guy, Lyle, Carlos Vargas, drills a batter. I think it's the second batter of the seventh inning. That one comes around to score. And then there's the opportunities the Mariners left on base when they were hitting, where there was a moment where we had just boarded the plane in Miami, and I had the game up on my phone, and I was watching the last little bit of it. You know, this might have gotten you like a stern look from the flight attendants in a normal reaction, so I kind of had to keep it down. It was the moment in the top of the eighth inning where Johnny Pareda I think he walks. Walks or singles to lead off the inning. He's on first base. 00:05:25 Speaker 1: J.P. 00:05:25 Speaker 2: Crawford's up. It's a tie game at this point, 6-6. And J.P. hits this little number over to second base. And J.P., the ball takes the second baseman towards first. So J.P. 's out at first. But because the momentum's going to first, Prada can easily get to second base. And then I see Jeff McNeil at first base come up firing and he throws this BB to second base. And Johnny Parada is 15 feet off seconds and. 00:05:57 Speaker 1: He gets picked off. I got, I jumped out of my seat in the plane. 00:06:04 Speaker 2: I was like, and I know there were people on the plane that went like. 00:06:09 Speaker 1: What the fuck is this dude doing? 00:06:13 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't know how else I was supposed to explain to people, random strangers, 3000 miles away about the 2026 Seattle Mariners, but it was very fitting because the next batter is Randy who hits the go ahead home run. And the difference between Lawrence Butler hitting a game tying in a walk-off home run is Jotty Pareto walking his ass off of second base. It's these things all season long that come back to bite you. 00:06:44 Speaker 1: Every time. 00:06:45 Speaker 2: And it happens with every player on the roster. It happens with Cal. It happens with Julio. It happens with Johnny Pareda. And it happens with Weston Wilson. It literally doesn't matter. You just think that they can't keep doing stupid things. You just think that. And then they do a stupid thing and you're like, wow, I'm an idiot for thinking that. 00:07:07 Speaker 1: You're an idiot for thinking it got cleaned up and they'd finally learn their lesson. Yeah. 00:07:11 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:07:13 Speaker 1: Because like you said, it's not a one size fits all with these mistakes. It's having everybody this year and they keep happening. They just keep continuing to go on. And similar to the start of the episode where we say, what do you even say to a series like this that we haven't said a million times all year? What can we really say to Johnny Parada's play that we haven't said a million times all year? Team was unfocused. Team was undisciplined. Team is probably going to lack accountability because while Parada probably wouldn't be in the lineup the next day regardless because it'll just go back to Cal's start day, I doubt there's any actual discipline taken for this, which is the same thing we've been saying all year. It's an unfocused team that makes really bad mistakes. They are not living in the moment. And then there's not going to be accountability for those said mistakes. 00:08:07 Speaker 2: I can't believe I have to come back to this sentence again, but I'm, I'm asking all of the high school coaches that are listening to this podcast, what your reaction would be if one of your players did that on your team? Like, is he playing the next day? 00:08:21 Speaker 1: That's a great question. 00:08:22 Speaker 2: Especially in that, in a tie game in the eighth inning. Like, dude, my, my player's not playing the next game. Especially a player like Johnny Parada. Like, Johnny Parada is the second catcher on the roster. You're a varsity head baseball coach. Your backup catcher gets picked off, backpicked at second base on a routine ground ball to the right side in a tie game late in the game. Like, there's no way he's playing. He's spending the next practice running poles for his mistake. That's how discipline works. That's how they coach it out of you when you're a high schooler But up at the big league level this year for the Mariners, these mistakes happen all of the time and they never get fixed. And I want to keep stop making this comparison because I'm not trying to call all the Mariners players high schoolers, but they play like it. I mean, when you have plays like that show up that many times. 00:09:20 Speaker 1: Yes. 00:09:21 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:09:22 Speaker 1: Obviously their talent is much greater and their ability is much greater, but the Mental lapses that these team have, or this team has, yes, looks like high school. Like, it looks like a high school moment because when you're undisciplined like that, that is stuff that happens in much, much lower levels of amateur baseball than the major leagues. But it happens in the major leagues all the time with the Mariners. And it's like a new way each time. With Weston Wilson, I remember in Miami, he forgot like how many outs there were. And then he ran to third base and got thrown out as a result. You have it with Pareda. Julio throwing balls in the stands you have Naylor not hustling out baseballs on double plays I mean it just goes on and on and on it can be the highly paid guys it can be the guys at the bottom of the roster it doesn't matter it just happens all across the board and then nothing ever gets fixed. 00:10:15 Speaker 2: Despite everything that else that happened this season for the Mariners If you flip the results of these two series against the A's, just in the last two weeks, the Mariners would be two games out of a playoff spot with 12 games to go. In which, even with Lyle and I being pretty set in stone that we're out on this team, and have been for quite a bit, it's hard to dispute being two games out with 12 games to go, facing the Angels twice, the Rockies, and then the team you're chasing in the standings. It's almost impossible to get around that fact that you could string together a 500 stretch for 12 games and still manage your way in the playoffs if two of those wins are against the Astros. But instead, the Mariners, instead of winning five of seven games against the A's in this last week and a half, the Mariners have lost five of seven games to the A's in the last week and a half. And they still sit five games back from each of the Texas Rangers and the Houston Astros. This division, I mean, it's turned into chasing two teams instead of just chasing one team. And one of those teams has the tiebreaker against you. And that's something you just didn't really want to happen. The Astros gave you a gift this weekend by getting swept in Tampa Bay and ultimately will not matter at all because the Mariners could not take care of business against the A's. And even though every opportunity in the world has been handed to them, even with all the doubts around them, they still only needed to win two series. in the last 10 days to put themselves back in a playoff spot. And they can't even do that. No. So yeah. Are we expecting anything in the final 12 games? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. 00:12:01 Speaker 1: What more can you say at this point? You, I mean, so when you see the Mariners are three back of the Rangers in the standings, don't look at it like that. Cause it's, it's really for now. 00:12:11 Speaker 2: Now they're four back there. Now they're, Now they're five back, technically, with the tiebreaker. Right. 00:12:17 Speaker 1: So it'll say four back in the standings, but remember in reality that for the Rangers, you're really five games back and not four, because if you tie with them, the Rangers are going to the playoffs. So really, they're five games back in the Rangers. So TJ's right. You still have two teams to catch, and five games in 12 days? Man, that feels like a lot. And to catch two teams in that time? Very, very, very tall to ask. 00:12:45 Speaker 2: And now there's six games back in the wild card too. So the math just doesn't work. It doesn't work. And then the eye test with what you watch on the field gives you zero reason at all to think that anything's going to change. So like the Mariners had the opportunity in front of them and they kicked it right to the curb. And there's probably almost certainly now 12 games left of this 2026 Mariners team. And then there's going to have to be a lot of changes to be made. to have this not happen again. Yeah. 00:13:14 Speaker 1: And we've talked about some of those changes. We're going to talk about plenty more as the time comes around to it, but yeah, it, it's inevitable at this point. Cause again, it's not just losing baseball games. It's the way you are losing. It's the fashion of which it looks on the field. It's the unfocused baseball. It's the bullpen implosions. It's stuff that's just going to have to get fixed this winter. And the Mariners are going to have a lot of work to do. I like, I hope they fix everything. I don't know if they'll really address everything, knowing the way they usually operate. They don't go out and overhaul a whole ton. They're going to have to do it to some extent with, again, at the very least, who's at the helm of the ship in terms of running the team. Because one of the storylines from this weekend, I would say to you, just Ken Rosenthal reporting this weekend that, yeah, he expects the Mariners to be finding a new manager at the end of the year. And Ken Rosenthal was right on that Scott service firing story two years ago. So when he's saying that, it's probably got some credit to it. So that's going to be one thing that you're going to need a new voice. You're going to need new messaging. You're going to need a new leader. But offense and bullpen, you look at those two things, you look at those two categories, I mean, you are going to have to overhaul a lot between needing your players to Play like the back of their baseball card and play like the way you paid them to when they were free agents, Naylor, Julio, et cetera, Cal. That's going to have to happen next year, and then you're going to need to add more on top of that. So there's a lot of overhaul that's going to need to happen in about two weeks here. 00:14:53 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll dive into all that as the offseason goes along. We'll have plenty of time to scheme up what exactly that's going to look like. I do feel like one idea you do need to talk about is what Bryce Miller's role is next year, and I think we could talk about that here in a few minutes, of what do you expect from him next year? Because it was just another start today where you had three innings where his velocity was high, and then all of a sudden the fourth inning rolls around and Bryce Miller dips right back below 95 miles an hour. And I'm just out on Bryce Miller when he's not throwing 95. When he can't throw 95, his stuff is not as effective, and he wasn't throwing enough strikes today. which is another telltale sign that Bryce isn't all the way there, and he's already admitted this season that he's been pitching through an injury. It's like, all right, I mean, there's two seasons in a row now that you're doing this, and there's a lot of other starters in the pipeline, so there are questions that need to be answered in terms of his role going forward. Before we get to something else, though, I have to ask you, while we're on the subject of this game, I'm trying to figure out if something is real or not. 00:15:59 Speaker 1: Oh, boy. 00:16:00 Speaker 2: So there's... Dan Wilson's postgame presser that floated around after the game today, in which, yes, he indeed did say tough one. But our friend Jake, Jake's takes online, you've probably seen his videos, friend of the channel. He put out a video about, you know, Dan saying tough one. But it also included a question from the presser that I don't buy as real. I feel like this might be made up. You let me know how this sounds, Lyle, and tell me if this is a real question or not that someone asked. 00:16:36 Speaker 1: This is the toughest one of the year. 00:16:37 Speaker 2: It was frustrating. 00:16:38 Speaker 1: No, they're all tough. They're all tough. 00:16:42 Speaker 2: Did someone actually in the media scrum say, Dan, is this the toughest one of the year with a straight face? Yes. I'm not buying that. If I asked that question, I'd be laughing. 00:16:58 Speaker 1: Is somebody else trying to just stir themselves up and make some fun out of what's been a just hell-riddled season in the final 12 games by asking a question like that? I know you say tough one, but is this the toughest one? You said tougher one at points in the last few weeks. Is this now toughest? 00:17:16 Speaker 2: But that's not a serious question. I mean, come on. Like, come on. If you have spent any time around the Mariners this year and talked to any member of the Mariners media core about Dan Wilson, there's no way you can get around tough one. So I just can't with a straight face, like think that someone was standing there dead serious. Dan, is this the toughest one of the year? Like is a, like an honest, genuine question him to try and get an answer instead of just baiting him to save tough one again. 00:17:49 Speaker 1: Like, right? There's no way. You would think, but again, maybe people want to be entertained at this point. They're just getting their final, they're getting their final questions in the final two weeks. 00:18:01 Speaker 2: Dan, you've had a lot of tough ones this year, but is this the toughest one? 00:18:05 Speaker 1: No, no, I can't. Now, again, to be fair, we were on the plane, so we didn't get to hear the postgame press conference live. So I don't recognize that voice, to be honest with you. It could be an AIDS media person. but I don't recognize that voice. It's not Davis. It's not Kramer. It's not Jude. It's not Shannon. It's not any of the usuals. So it would have to be somebody that's either not around as much or from Oakland or, or from Sacramento. 00:18:35 Speaker 2: Or maybe, I don't know. Maybe I should have asked Jake before we got on this podcast. If he added that question to it. 00:18:42 Speaker 1: Well, we can ask him. 00:18:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, we can ask him. But I thought I was like, I saw that clip and I'm, Jake does great content and that video was hilarious, but I was like, I honestly, I can't buy that someone actually asked that question. For this year's Mariners team, someone like actually sat up there and asked that question. Like think in like a home media scrum of all the Seattle media who are around and like know the bits of this team. If someone asked that question, you know, I would go like, look side, look to the side. Make eye contact with somebody and smirk. Like, you know that's how it works. 00:19:20 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. 00:19:21 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:19:22 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes. Okay. 00:19:25 Speaker 2: All right. We got a couple more points to talk about on this podcast episode. Before that, I want to tell you guys about Emerald Queen Casino's upcoming lineup of shows. The Phil Collins story is on September 17th. Matt Matthews on September 27th. Sons of Legion on October 4th, and Gary Allen on October 9th. Get your tickets today at emeraldqueen.com. Emerald Queen Casino is the entertainment capital of the Northwest. And while you're there, you can check out the BetMGM Sportsbook. There's no better place to watch the game. 70 dream seat loungers for premium viewing, dozens of 86-inch TVs, legal wagering on college and pro sports. You can download the BetEQC app for live wagering anywhere on the property. Catch every sport and every play at Emerald Queen Casino. For more details, visit EmeraldQueen.com. Please game responsibly. There was a thought you and I had while we were sitting there on the plane today on the scope of this series. So Andres Munoz gets called into this game, Game 3, in the eighth inning. He's attempting his first five-out save since Scott Service was manager. So it's been well over two years since Andres Munoz has done something like this. I believe it was June of 2024, the last time he completed a five-out save. He didn't get it done today. But Andres Munoz still has been a bit of a story this series, given the Mariners blew the first game of this series when they go to extra innings with a one-run lead Andres Munoz had pitched the previous two days before, but he was not available for three days in a row. Edward Pizarro was instead available, and he gave up the walk-off home run to, of all players, Donovan Walton. 00:21:12 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:21:13 Speaker 2: I don't know if I'll get over that one. But Andres Munoz is available after getting another day off on Saturday. On Sunday, he pitches, and he gives up the walk-off to run home run. And the discussion around Munoz has been, yeah, I think a little bit frustrating on where the blame goes for Friday's scenario of what happened. And then, of course, gets brought back up again on Sunday. Here's what confuses me the most, right? If you ask any mariner, coach, or player as of Friday, they would have told you, yet we're still in it, we're still trying to win 100% of our games. Okay, like that's how the lineup looked. We were beefing at the lineup on Friday because they're not putting any of their top prospects in there. And instead putting what they view as a safer lineup with Taylor Ward and Weston Wilson instead. So you'd think, okay, team is going to push the buttons to try and win games. But then Andres Munoz, the season on the line is not available three days in a row. 00:22:27 Speaker 1: What? 00:22:28 Speaker 2: It's like, what would the rest be for at this point of the season, right? 00:22:34 Speaker 1: Well, again, and it's just another signal or lack thereof as to what the Mariners are playing for. Why are you calling up Michael Arroyo and then not playing him? Because that would signal you're going for the win. But then if you're going for the win, Munoz should be available. Like going for the win in terms of still trying to significantly win games above all else in 2026 to try to make the playoffs. But if that's the case, then Munoz has to be available. You can't magically find out that he's not available. He has to be available. And the process they're working on right now doesn't make a lot of sense. Because again, Do you want to play your young prospects? Do you want to get Laz and Arroyo time every day, lefty or righty, in the field, at the plate, just get them reps? Is that what you want, or are you trying to win? Because if you're trying to win and then not playing Michael Arroyo, then Michael Arroyo should still be in AAA. But he's not. The AAA still has games going on. Arroyo could still be playing. But instead, you have him up in the majors, and in his first six days in the big leagues, he gets four total at-bats? 00:23:48 Speaker 2: What? He did make up for a lot of it on Saturday. 00:23:52 Speaker 1: He did. He had a big game Saturday, and he walked three times again on Sunday. So Michael Arroyo's had a good weekend. But again, what are you playing for? The win or development? 00:24:07 Speaker 2: That's a great question. I think you and I are on the boat of development now since we think the season's over. Right. There's no, but also it should be if you're trying to win because Taylor Ward and Weston Wilson are like two of the 10 worst players in baseball. 00:24:22 Speaker 1: Correct. 00:24:23 Speaker 2: So like it's, you're quite literally not giving yourself the best chance of winning by playing those players. Like you cut your losses and you're like, all right. I mean, Michael Rowe, you think can't be worse. And the last two days have showed. Yeah. I mean, he's been more productive. He has more home runs. already as a Mariner than Taylor Ward does. 00:24:42 Speaker 1: It's incredible. It really is incredible. Is Taylor Ward going to finish the season with a negative OPS plus? I guess it's possible. Well, he got a hit the other day, so I think it's back over the negative mark with the Mariners. Yeah, you know what? Credit Taylor Ward. Sits all the way at 11 now. It's not in the negative. Probably won't finish negative. 00:25:03 Speaker 2: I'm happy for him. Good for him. 00:25:04 Speaker 1: It's amazing. 00:25:05 Speaker 2: It's always good to be in the positive. Yeah. Leads a more positive mindset. 00:25:10 Speaker 1: But if you're playing for the win, then one, how is Munoz not available three days in a row? And two, how do you not know ahead of time what his availability status is? How are you not building your whole game plan on knowing what bullets you have and don't have for who's trying to help you make your called so-called final push of the year? 00:25:32 Speaker 2: They probably did know ahead of time. ahead of time that he wasn't available. My question is, why wasn't he available? 00:25:39 Speaker 1: Look, I don't know how much this has been reported on. I don't think it's out there much, but I will tell you guys that if you want a little bit of tea on this, we've done some digging, we've talked to enough people, and we have learned that Andres Munoz is an incredibly difficult reliever to deal with in terms of managing his usage and availability. And a lot of that has to do with Munoz himself. Don't get me wrong. The Mariners and the leadership and the coaches could do more to essentially try to ignite the fire under Munoz and tell him that, hey, we need you here. The team needs you here. This is what's best for the success of the team. But Andres Munoz is a very, very tough guy to manage in terms of his bullpen usage because there are just certain ways that he feels like he likes things done. that make it tougher for everybody around him, if that makes sense. 00:26:47 Speaker 2: This is not something that is unique to Andres Munoz. Guys can be particular at times. Josh Hader, before he got paid, which I ultimately think this is about, Andres Munoz eventually will hit free agency again, and he wants to be healthy, and he doesn't want to get overused before free agency. If I'm going to take a guess of what the thinking of this is, that's usually what most things are about. Josh Hader was the same way. He used to be used for multiple innings, used to be used all over the place, and then eventually, as he got closer to free agency, he said, I only want to pitch one inning. Can't blame him. I mean, the Brewers were throwing him nearly 100 innings a season early in his career as a reliever. 00:27:31 Speaker 1: Sure. Here's the difference, though, right? Is Hader said that in his walk year, in the final year of his contract, he said, hey, guys, I'm not going to go multiple innings like you he didn't. 00:27:45 Speaker 2: Say in the regular season maybe in the postseason in the. 00:27:47 Speaker 1: Regular season yes regular season this was not about the postseason but i think the padres missed the playoffs that year so it didn't matter but hater said i'm not going to go multiple innings of work in my walk year which like you said because of how much hater thrown in his career it was his one true chance to get paid And if he felt like the Padres were essentially just going to use every ounce of energy and usage they could out of him, only to then let him walk and not pay him. If you're a hater in his camp, it does make some sense to that extent to say, okay, I'm not going to let you guys just burn me out and then kick me to the curb once my clock is up and I'm a free agent. I got to protect myself a little bit. So in haters walk here, he said, okay, I'm not going to go multiple innings. Andres Munoz, guys, as we sit, still has two more years of team control after this year. Because after this year, there's two more club options on his contract. The Mariners will obviously pick both of them up. And Andres Munoz will be a Mariner for minimum two more years. So it's not like it's even his walk year where he's saying, hey, I can only pitch the ninth inning. This has been going on for a while where he says he only wants to pitch the ninth inning. It's best for his routine. It's best for how he operates. Even though when Scott was the manager, Munoz would get used all over the place. Basically, as soon as Dan Wilson took over that next year, because he entered 2025, and he says, hey, I only want to pitch the ninth. That makes it much harder on the rest of your rotation, or sorry, on the rest of your bullpen, when your best arm says, I'll only pitch in one inning. You won't go high leverage in the, like, He doesn't really want to pitch high leverage in the seventh. He doesn't want to get multiple outs every now and then. It's just one inning, same story. et cetera. 00:29:42 Speaker 2: And he has not pitched three games in a row all season long. So like that usage has been pretty consistent. I think there's a couple of different ways to look at this. I think Andres was, had this same mindset. Scott was the manager, but it is the job of the coaching staff to pitch the player on, hey, like, I understand, but we need you. Like, let's look at the bigger picture here. Here's our plan for you. This is why communication matters. If you're able to communicate to people, hey, man, look, this might not look like this might not look normal, but we do think it's best for the team and we think it will benefit you as well. You got to sell it, right? So I think Scott was able to sell Munoz, clearly. I mean, he pitched and he pitched very, very, very well on his role when he was the manager. But as we know, Dan's not really an enforcer. Dan's not really one to put the law down. Dan doesn't really have an identity. Dan doesn't really have Something that it doesn't seem like Dan's willing to like go out there and really push back on his players if they come to him with an issue. So of course, if Andre, like Dan's the manager and Andre says, Dan, I just feel like to protect myself, I only want to pitch the ninth inning and I don't want to pitch three days in a row. Dan goes, okay. Yeah. And then that's it. So that's number one. That's my theory on that, my thought on how this goes down and why the Mariners ended up in that situation on Friday. With two weeks left in a season in a game they absolutely had to win, it's just like, oh, he's not available. It's like, oh, he's not available? That's a moment where, as a coach, you need to go sell him on, hey, do you want... we want to make the playoffs. We really need you right now. Please. 00:31:50 Speaker 1: We need you in this game. If you're sore, we like, we need you to go and tough it out. We need you to be available tonight. Cause it, we're on our final breath here. We're on thin ice. We have very little margin for error left. And if we get in a close game late, we really need you. You're right. The communication matters tenfold, especially with this team, because. 00:32:13 Speaker 2: The second thing I think about with this though. 00:32:16 Speaker 1: What's, I was just going to say, when you see Adam Jude tweet that Munoz isn't available and he puts an ellipses on the end of the tweet with a few dots, it makes me think that I can't read between the tea leaves perfectly of Adam's tweet, but it certainly makes me think that he also was stunned that he just magically wasn't available. It makes me think that they potentially found out in the middle of the game that, hey, Munoz isn't going to be available to pitch. They called down and he said, yeah, I'm not going to be available, which I just, that can't happen. late in the year. 00:32:48 Speaker 2: No, I don't think pitching three games in a row when you haven't pitched three games in a row all season in September, when you're your playoff lives are on the line is something unreasonable. 00:32:59 Speaker 1: Not at all. And, and here's the part where I don't think this has really been out there in terms of reporting. And I'm not sitting here reporting it. This is just what we've heard a couple of times. So this is not a report. I'm just Giving the people an insight to the things we've heard, having some conversations with people that I certainly feel like know the situation and we trust. Here's where this gets difficult with Munoz. Not only is he very set in his ways about how he wants to be used, from the stories we've heard, his agent also is meddling in this stuff all the time about his usage, about how he wants him deployed. And when you have a coaching staff and a team that's already got enough on their hands trying to go about their own business, and map together game plans for the best possible way to win, and then all of a sudden you've got an agent meddling in the situation. It's like, well, my client's not going to be used here, and he's not going to be used here, and I don't want him pitching then. That's a pain in the ass that makes it incredibly difficult for any team to deal with on top of everything else already going on. 00:34:07 Speaker 2: Which is why you need really good salesmen in your front office and on your coaching staff to sell that this is right. 00:34:14 Speaker 1: Correct. 00:34:15 Speaker 2: And I don't think the Mariners do. 00:34:17 Speaker 1: Correct. So it's, again, a problem that has a ton of layers to it that is not just one party. It is the Munoz and the Munoz camp part of it, of being set in the ways. It is on the coaching staff for being, to use... It's a word we used a lot this weekend talking about this team, and I think it's very true. This team and this coaching staff honestly feels like it's a bunch of enablers and not really enforcers and not really delivering the proper message to best get the best usage out of your players. So it's on the coaching staff for not relaying the message clearly enough or so it feels like. And then it's on the construction of the bullpen too. Because if you have a very picky reliever that only likes to be used in certain spots and that's your best arm and you don't have other guys around him that are at a similar level to him or that are really, really dominant in high leverage spots, you leave yourself exposed because if your best reliever doesn't want to pitch in certain situations, you don't have another guy behind him. Let's compare two players. They're making similar contracts, but you have to pick one guy to be in your lineup. Player 1 hit 300. He had an 840 OPS and a 141 WRC +. 41% better than the league average. Player 2 hit 185. He had a 563 OPS and a 63 WRC +. So who would you pick? The clear answer is Player A, right? because player A is 2025 Dominic Canzone and player B is 2022 Abraham Toro. Well, you can apply that same logic to our friends over at Davis Law Group, who offer better service with even better results. Most PI firms charge very similar fees, so why not make it simple and just hire the best? Davis Law Group is your premium option for accident firms. They have an in-house investigation team, they treat every case like it's going to trial, and they have over 700 five-star reviews on Google. Davis Law Group wants you to know your rights in the case of an accident. That's why Chris Davis, the founder of Davis Law Group, wrote a series of Washington accident books. He turned common questions into easy-to-understand books to help people navigate the process. And they've given away over 100,000 books across the state of Washington. They want you to be informed. Davis Law Group only takes on cases where they truly believe they can help, and you don't pay unless you get a result. If you've been injured and you want to better understand your options, you can request a free, no-obligation case evaluation with their team. Just visit dlgseattle.com slash baseball to learn more. That's dlgseattle.com slash baseball. 00:36:50 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, honestly, half of this comes back to the front office. You understand if this is a scenario. and this is what you're dealing with, you need to build your bullpen to be able to withstand that. If you were serious about your bullpen being top of the level, instead the Mariners have left their bullpen overly exposed where when Munoz is only pitching the ninth inning, that means you're relying more on Bazzardo, Ferrer, Michael Rucker, etc. in these early innings in these high leverage situations that you would feel much more comfortable with someone like Munoz or Brash pitching in. But Brash has been injured all year. He's been injured pretty much... He's been injured a lot of the last three seasons. And then Gabe Spire you want for lefties. So what happens when you have a pocket of righties? Well, you need... You want a high leverage arm, but your high leverage arm only wants to pitch the ninth inning in the regular season. So it is a coaching issue. It is a player issue. And it is a front office issue. Something we've said way too many times... with way too many issues for this Mariners team this season, which is why this season can really not end quick enough. Yeah. 00:38:03 Speaker 1: Again, it does feel a bit hater-esque with Munoz about being very, very picky about the situations that he gets deployed in. Again, the difference is this was not always a Josh Hader thing. Josh Hader threw multiple innings a lot, and now that he has his contract, He throws multiple innings a pretty decent amount, or gets four plus outs a decent amount. He only did that in one year. The fact that Munoz currently has two years left on his deal after this season, and it sounds like this has been going on for a while in terms of his selectiveness about where he likes to pitch. Yeah, that's a long time to have to be dealing with something like that. It really is. Because if it happened when Dan took over, that means for minimum four years this has been going on with his selectiveness about where he likes to be deployed. But it may even be longer than that. I think it was probably going on under Scott too, if I had to guess. I think it was. From what we understand, it's just Scott would still use him in different situations when he could. Like, you know, when he'd communicate the message well, when he'd get it through to the team and the player well, about this is how it's best set up to help us win, that it would still, wasn't always perfect, because I think there were stories that, again, maybe Munoz didn't love throwing in all those different situations, but they still did it under Scott when they could but it's it's not happening now and I'll conclude it with this does it go back to the fact that Munoz is on an incredibly team-friendly deal and they're potentially looking out for him to be healthy when he hits free agency again. I'm sure it's a part of it. But here's the part I don't understand. You signed that contract. You and your agent negotiated and signed this contract that you were clearly okay with. You didn't have to do that. You'd be a free agent by now if you hadn't done that. But what do you want me to say? You signed the deal. You were okay with the deal. 00:40:16 Speaker 2: And now. 00:40:17 Speaker 1: you're being asked to do what's asked of you. 00:40:21 Speaker 2: It's a great point, Lyle. That is a great point. This is one of many storylines now we're going to have to tackle in the offseason of how the Mariners are going to approach this bullpen. Like, yes, we would like Andres Munoz to be in this bullpen, but if this is going to be the role, then you need to build around that role so it doesn't come to bite you in September. Where, for the Padres, like, If Mason Miller said, look, and I wouldn't be shocked if Mason Miller tried to do the same thing, especially given how hard he throws and injury risk when you throw that hard of like trying to limit himself when he gets closer to free agency. Well, guess what? The Padres have like five of their leverage arms. So AJ probably can go like, all right, I mean, that's fine. Like we'll be all right. Like we just want to keep Mason happy at this moment. So we can hedge against that. as opposed to like telling Mariners fans what would happen, it means you have to throw Edward Bazzardo and Michael Rucker more in leverage spots, which people would be absolutely furious about. 00:41:26 Speaker 1: Yeah. The Padres have the pieces around them to, you know, if Mason Miller eventually gets into a spot where, like you said, he also doesn't want to be absolutely burned out before he hits free agency, I'd get it. But the Padres have the bullpen to do it. Morajon will be a free agent at the end of the year. But again, right now, You have Morajone. You have Estrada. You have Bradley. You have Jason Adam. Like, the Padres are a loaded bullpen, man. This was the thing last year, too. Like, the bullpen last year was nuts. It was Mason Miller. It was Robert Suarez. It was Morajone. It was Estrada. It was Adam. I mean, it was an insane bullpen. The Mariners do not have that. Like, when you get down to call it whoever you want, if you wanted to call last year's Padres bullpen... which was just an absolute nails bullpen. If Jeremiah Estrada is the fifth guy. Well, right now the Mariners fifth guy is Michael Rucker or Carlos Vargas. And that's a problem. 00:42:27 Speaker 2: That's a big problem. Big drop up between the, the Padres and the, and the Mariners in that spot. Yeah. 00:42:32 Speaker 1: I would, I would add this one last thing and I don't know the answer to this, but it is a question when you hear stories like this, how do the other guys in the bullpen feel about this? I'd be interested. Because if you have one guy essentially... I know he's the closer. I know he's your best reliever. But essentially saying, I should get special treatment. And then it leaves your other parts of the bullpen exposed. I can't help but wonder if some of these other relievers back there at points get a little pissed off. 00:43:08 Speaker 2: Well, it's hard to know because you'd probably have to talk to them. But if I were to guess, it would be... If there was anyone who would be pissed at this, it would probably be Bazzardo, right? 00:43:20 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:43:21 Speaker 2: Because he's the one who gets overused as a response to this, as the innings that need to be filled otherwise. And the difference between those two guys is like, so Munoz in this scenario gets protected, but Bazzardo gets overused, has had a really bad second half, could get cut. It's a big difference. 00:43:46 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. It's a very big difference. 00:43:49 Speaker 2: Yeah. I could totally, once it, once it starts messing with other people's jobs, absolutely. A hundred percent. 00:43:56 Speaker 1: Look, I don't want to take anything away from Munoz. Like he is obviously an incredibly, incredibly nice human being who is fantastic with the fans. He's friendly to everybody he talks to. Like, like that is still the case. Like, Everybody loves Andres Munoz as a person for very, very, very good reasons. But when it comes to the in-game stuff and these stories about him you hear, it does just make you kind of sit and have the conversation of, is it a little more difficult to deal with Andres Munoz internally than what meets the public eye? And I think it's a fair question. 00:44:36 Speaker 2: Totally fair question. I'll conclude on this, Lyle. I think the best Mariners thing that happened... on Sunday, even though we're recording here on Monday, we got to meet Raul Abanez for the first time. On our way out of Miami, we were heading out of the stadium and actually got to sit and chat with Raul Abanez for a couple minutes. He was very nice. We didn't get to talk to him ever when he came up to Seattle, but he lives in Miami. So he was there. He was around the stadium all three days. And we got to wrap up and have a quick chat. He was very nice. Watches some of the content. That's awesome. So that was pretty cool. 00:45:13 Speaker 1: Very. Dude, Raul's the man. I think he was always known for being a nice dude and a fun player to be around. So that doesn't really shock me. But yeah, it was very, very cool to talk to Raul. Obviously, we knew who he was. We could see him from a mile away, recognize them. But he almost kind of stopped to talk to us, which was a wild thing. I think he sees the bullpen banner stuff more than the pod stuff is what I picked up on. 00:45:37 Speaker 2: I don't think he knew we were from Seattle. So yeah, that was good. Maybe surprise for him. 00:45:42 Speaker 1: It was. So I think he sees the other stuff, but yeah, it's, um, that was really fun. And it was fun to also cross another ballpark off our list. Lone Depot parks kind of whatever. It's whatever. It's just kind of like a, it's a, it's an almost upscale trop. I haven't been to the trop, but that's what it felt like. 00:46:00 Speaker 2: If you made the trop like 20 years newer and put windows in it, that's probably what Lone Depot park is. 00:46:06 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:46:07 Speaker 2: If I'm going to describe it, it's fine. 00:46:09 Speaker 1: My God, I will say as we start to conclude the episode, people are not kidding when they say it is one tough scene to do Dodgers media. That was the first time we'd ever done bullpen banner content with the Dodgers. And we did get some. Over a course of three days where there was only one day of batting practice, which for those that don't know, it's very, very hard to do player interviews when there's not batting practice going on because there's way, way fewer guys on the field. But there was only one day of batting practice in the three games, which we didn't know until we got there. We figured there would be two. But man, it is tough to do Dodgers media. It really is. No matter where you go, no matter who you are, it is just packed every day. It is a total media circus where every single person wants their attention and is yelling at them and is trying to get They're too, they're, you know, trying to get two minutes out of them. Oh my God. 00:47:11 Speaker 2: And those players are very used to saying no, because it's just, it is constant. It is every day. Like the, the crowd that was in Miami was allegedly a light media crowd. And there was probably 25 media members, maybe more. 00:47:28 Speaker 1: I thought it was more. 00:47:29 Speaker 2: You think it was more than that? I thought, and apparently that wasn't that many at all. 00:47:33 Speaker 1: I think it was closer to like 40, to be honest with you. And yeah, since Shohei wasn't there this weekend, since he's on the injured list, and he didn't travel, there was a lot of Japanese media that didn't make the trip. So that was apparently light, and it was still absolutely ridiculous. Like, I'll give you an example. Tarek Skubal gets off the field one day as he's talking to the Dodgers pitching coach. The minute they break off, it was like a tidal wave of media rushed up to him. Everybody's asking for his time. Everybody. Everybody. It's crazy. Eight different people walked up to him trying to wait to do an interview. All at once. Everybody goes up. 00:48:13 Speaker 2: And credit to him, he did four of them. Unfortunately, he didn't do ours. 00:48:17 Speaker 1: Well, we didn't even really get a chance because by the time he'd done three or four in a row, obviously he can't stand there forever. These players have things to do. He had to cut it off at some point. It really is crazy. Somebody tried to ask Freddie Freeman for an interview. And he told the person, well, I can only do one interview, is what he said. Like, rather than if there's a couple people that want his time. No, he just says, I can only do one interview. And Freddie's a very nice guy. But these players have to prioritize their time. Otherwise, they're never going to stop doing interviews. And once you say yes to one person, you're going to have a lot of media people that think, oh, well, then you should say yes to five more. So it is one interview. crazy scene let me put it like that and it's every day there there are a lot of places there's even more media than miami no nowhere more so than la well we've seen. 00:49:13 Speaker 2: All the other big teams around the league we've seen the cubs we've seen the yankees we've seen the phillies we've seen the mets i mean it's just it's not even close to the amount of media the dodgers have like they are they are far and away in their own stratosphere when it comes to attention and media presence and you know what like they have Lots of international stars, and they've won the last two World Series, so I can't say I'm very surprised that's the reason. 00:49:40 Speaker 1: No, and it's not, I mean, and it's just stars in general. It literally looks like an all-star team walking around. It's this name, then this name, then this name. Like, it was, like, I don't know. The first day, you see Yamamoto walk out, and then you see Glasnell walk out, and then you see Mookie come on. With his javelins. What's up? 00:49:56 Speaker 2: With his javelins. Oh, yeah. A crazy scene to see in person. 00:49:59 Speaker 1: It was crazy, and it's also crazy to watch Yamamoto warm up where he goes... 300 feet from his throwing partner. And he barely takes even a step forward and just casually tosses the biggest BB of all time, 300 feet away, perfectly placed in the glove back at the foul line. It's crazy, but yeah, he comes out and then Glassnow and then Scooble and then Mookie and then Freddie and then Muncie. And then it's everybody. Well, then Roki Sasaki, who's obviously got a lot of attention from some of the Japanese media. one by one by one by one. I mean, it is, it is crazy to see in person. It really is like watching an all-star team walk around. And we still did some Dodgers content. Like there's still a handful of players that we're going to have to post for both of them and her stuff in the next couple of weeks. But it, you have got to fight. I mean, you've got a claw to essentially like try to get some of these guys attention. It's crazy. Yeah. 00:50:55 Speaker 2: But you live in, you live and you learn. We have no idea. Otherwise you definitely like see a lot more, learn a lot more things by going out and doing stuff like this. 00:51:04 Speaker 1: For sure and it's not going to be the last time we see the dodgers either because it's you know it's a team that people want to hear from and we want to do more content with them but it's just you know it's a different game than just about any other team that you see because it is just so different with so much media it's it's wild. 00:51:25 Speaker 2: It was crazy. But good trip. Very productive. 00:51:27 Speaker 1: Very fun. 00:51:28 Speaker 2: Long, long, long trip. 00:51:30 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a long flight. But that's okay. And we did some Marlins stuff too. So for those of you that watch our Bullpen Manor stuff also, there's Marlins and Dodgers interviews that we'll be putting out. So it was fun. I'm glad we did it. All right. That just about wraps up this edition of the Marine Layer Podcast. You guys know the drill. If you want to listen to the full-form podcast, you can do so wherever you get your audio pods. Make sure to download these episodes if you're listening. Go rate and review. Please leave it five stars. It helps a ton. You can also go watch on YouTube. Hit subscribe if you're watching on YouTube. You can check us out at our website, marinelayerpod.com. Episodes, Patreon, podcast merch, it's all there. And then follow us on social media at marinelayerpod. That's TJ. I'm Lyle. As always, we thank you guys for tuning in. We'll talk to you soon.