Episode 461: Jordan Shusterman (Yahoo Sports/Cespedes Family BBQ)

00:00:00 Speaker 1: Welcome to episode number 461 of the Marine Layer podcast. We welcome on our friend Jordan Schusterman from Cespedes Family Barbecue and Yahoo Sports. We wrap up the Mariners 2026 Mariners season and try and diagnose what went wrong. 00:00:14 Speaker 2: Reminder to you guys before you start this podcast, make sure you go hit subscribe on YouTube. If you're watching, go download these episodes. If you're listening, make sure to leave a five-star review. All that really, really does help big time. So Go do that if you have a chance to do so. You can also find everything we have on our website, which is marinelayerpod.com. Our merch is all there. We'd love to see you guys wearing the merch around, especially as fall season's now approaching. Patreon's there. Episodes are there. And then you guys can also check us out all across social media at marinelayerpod. 00:00:46 Speaker 1: Let's get it rolling. Let's get it rolling. And we welcome you to this episode of the Marine Layer Podcast, part of the Just Baseball Podcast Network, recording here on Thursday evening, September 24th. Lyle, it is over. 00:01:14 Speaker 3: Season over. 00:01:16 Speaker 2: Well, actually, I don't know what you're talking about, Teej. Season's been over since July. 00:01:21 Speaker 1: But, Lyle, they, as of today, Thursday, September 24th, have been eliminated from the playoffs. They will not be returning. Officially. 00:01:33 Speaker 2: And it really is incredible that a team 10 games under 500 is eliminated on the fourth to last day of the season, which says exactly what I said yesterday on social media. This AL West is complete poverty, but you guys already knew that. I'm just saying it again, watching that game on Wednesday and watching whatever the hell the Astros were rolling out as their quote unquote fighting for a division. 00:01:57 Speaker 3: It was unbelievable. 00:01:58 Speaker 1: Well, and, And when they threw a Josh hitter for 44 pitches. 00:02:05 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:02:07 Speaker 1: It's crazy. 00:02:08 Speaker 2: Well, they were look, he's their closer. He's their best reliever. He's had a great year and they're trying to get two innings out of them to lock down a win, but it didn't work. They don't have a whole lot of other great bullpen arms back there. 00:02:21 Speaker 1: Yeah. But how often does throwing your best reliever who had thrown a max 20 pitches, usually all season long throw 44. It, In my opinion, that only works out like half the time. 00:02:32 Speaker 3: I mean, that's fair. 00:02:34 Speaker 2: I think the one that stuck out to me more, like I talked about, is the Astros trying to compete for a division and starting a dude named Lucas Spence, an undrafted outfielder from two years ago out of Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. 00:02:50 Speaker 3: We actually do have a friend that went there and played baseball there. Shout out to him. 00:02:53 Speaker 2: But undrafted from two years ago out of a really small school. Somehow is up in the big leagues at this point. He hit about 240 with a 770 OPS in the minors this year. And so far in the big leagues, in 40 at-bats, has put up six hits, which comes out to a 150 batting average, a 419 OPS, and a 22 OPS +. And that is a man starting in the outfield for the Astros as they try to crown themselves AL West champions. 00:03:27 Speaker 3: That's the division for you, people. That's the division. 00:03:30 Speaker 2: This Mariners team could not win, could not conquer, could not finish above 500 in. 00:03:37 Speaker 1: I mean, Lyle, it's only going to take one more loss from both the Astros and the Rangers. And for the Rangers, the final three days, the Astros, the final four days for it to be the first division winner in baseball history did not have a winning record. One loss each. I think that can happen. It's more likely than not now that the team that wins this division has 81 wins max. And that says everything, which is, again, why this Mariners season needed to be put to bed. It's over. It's officially over. They're eliminated. The final four games of the season, the only thing that matter in the final four games of this season now, there's no more, oh, there's a scenario where they can come back and win the division. No, no, no, no, no. Mariners have played their way out of that. The final four games of this season are all about Rick Riz, and that's it. 00:04:30 Speaker 3: Yes. That's it. 00:04:31 Speaker 1: If you're going to the park this weekend, the game on the field does not matter as much as the man up in the booth that has put 41 years of his life to this franchise. Unfortunately for him, the games will mean absolutely nothing. But if you're walking around the ballpark and walking around the concourse where the Mariners will pipe in the radio noise while you're buying your food or using the bathroom, just sit back. and enjoy Rick Riz this weekend. 00:04:59 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 00:05:00 Speaker 2: And for those of you that don't often listen on the radio, take this weekend to listen on the radio. I mean, at the very least on Sunday, especially during his final game, and especially during that post-game show when he's going to give the sign-off. 00:05:15 Speaker 3: Take the time this weekend to listen on the radio. 00:05:17 Speaker 2: I mean, if you're somebody that regularly watches on TV, and the two of us are, because not just because we... want the visual aspect of the game a lot of the time, but especially for podcasting about it three times a week and talking about it every day on social media. Like we want to see what's going on every minute of every game. 00:05:35 Speaker 3: So we are. 00:05:36 Speaker 2: Pretty locked in, but there is a very, very unique connection between radio baseball broadcasting and its fan base. And nobody's embodied that better than Rick Riz in this city, maybe in baseball, especially over the last 41 years. And he deserves every single showered praise that comes his way this weekend. Cause he is a legend. He is a Mariners legend. He's in the Mariners hall of fame for a reason. And like TJ said, this weekend's all about him and acknowledging for as atrocious as the on-field product was all year, acknowledging the absolute greatness of his career. 00:06:18 Speaker 1: And maybe he'll get into the baseball hall of fame. 00:06:21 Speaker 2: I think it's still, I think it's still possible. Mariners Hall of Fame was a very, very nice first step, and it was long overdue. They picked a good time to do it. Don't get me wrong. 00:06:29 Speaker 3: But for him to get. 00:06:32 Speaker 1: Into the Baseball Hall of Fame, he would need to win the Ford C. Frick Award, right? 00:06:37 Speaker 3: I think so. 00:06:38 Speaker 1: Maybe that'll happen this year. That's how Niehaus got in. 00:06:40 Speaker 3: Maybe that'll happen this year. 00:06:42 Speaker 1: How do they decide on that award? 00:06:44 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure it's a little subjective because it's voted on by peers, right? 00:06:48 Speaker 1: Right. 41 years is a pretty good sales pitch. Yeah. Yeah. 00:06:53 Speaker 2: I mean, look, there are other broadcasters in baseball that are more nationally famous. But, you know, for Mariners fans, that's our Vin Scully. Rick Riz is not as nationally famous as Vin Scully. A lot of people consider Vin the greatest to ever do it. And it's two people who grew up, well, not grew up, but went to school thinking they wanted to do play-by-play broadcasting and very heavily pursued it, both of us, until we really started doing this podcast. I think we have some extra appreciation for play-by-play broadcasters, and having Rick not just in our livelihood and in Mariners fans' livelihood the entirety of our lives, but getting to pick apart what makes him so great by listening to him all these years, I mean, it does really make you appreciate just how different he was compared to a lot of other broadcast teams out there. All major league broadcasters are good, but there is a very different connection you get listening to Rick Riz. I mean, it really does feel like your classic, like picture perfect image as a baseball fan. When you think of, Oh, sitting in a rocking chair on a summer night outside on your porch, listening to the radio, that voice like it's Rick Riz. That's the perfect voice, calm, relaxing, energetic, like upbeat, everything. 00:08:17 Speaker 1: And you get so used to Rick and, and, everything, the way he acts on the radio, the familiar nature, when you meet him in person, as we've talked about, he's the exact same way. When you get so used to that, you'll turn on another team's broadcast and be like, this is not as good. I don't like this. I'd rather go listen to Rick Riz instead. Even if Rick's, I don't know, taking the day off or it comes next year and he's not broadcasting anymore. You'll just realize like how, like how used to that you are. And you don't realize how much you actually appreciated it until it was gone. Because the core thing that a play-by-play broadcaster does, like you said, you're telling a story, you're in a rocking chair at something, like you're working around the house, you're working in the yard. Like it's something that's just always on in the background. You always have the same tone of voice behind you. It is just the relaxing nature of it. But the other thing is, like, can you describe a play well? Do you describe a play well? Do you get to the point? Do you nail the highlights? As I remember, we've talked with Gary Hill on here before. Rick does that so, so, so well. And there's a reason a lot of the biggest highlights in Mariners history have Rick Riz's voice on them. And the announcers are what make those highlights even better than they already are. I always think about the two, as good as Rick's calls were for these two plays, the Jorge Polanco play and Eugenio Suarez's grand slam last year in the postseason. But like the TV calls... by two of the best play-by-play announcers there are, and Joe Davis and Adam Amin, were also incredible during that stretch. And I honestly think punctuates that play even more than the play itself does when you combine TV, radio, and then the atmosphere of it. Like that's really what it is. And that's kind of what we're losing with Rick Riz. With all the respect in the world to our friend, Gary Hill is going to do a phenomenal job in that seat going forward. You know, Rick's been here 41 years. That's all we've ever known. That's all most adults around here have ever known. And it's going to be hard to hear games without him. 00:10:22 Speaker 2: And I think if you were to ask Gary, if we were to ask Gary, he would also say the same thing. As somebody who's grown up a Mariners fan, he'd say, yeah, nobody's Rick Riz. He's a legend. He's Mariners royalty. Gary knows that. Gary's going to do a phenomenal job going forward. And you just said it. We both believe it. We love Gary. But Gary knows Rick Riz is Mariners royalty. And it's going to be different without him around next year. The Mariners have never had a season without one of Dave Niehaus or Rick Riz in the booth. 00:10:53 Speaker 3: Next year is going to be the first time. And that's different. 00:10:55 Speaker 1: That's crazy. So we'll see how we feel next year. We'll give a check in on the first weekend and see how we feel about that. But it's a bummer. And if you're at the park this weekend, please soak it in. Enjoy Rick. If you happen to run into him anywhere, as I'm sure you will. thank him for what he's done. Cause it's, it's really been incredible. 00:11:12 Speaker 2: And listen on Sunday at the very least, like listen this weekend on the radio, or if you are going to be out, you're going to be busy. Like at least on Sunday, take the time to listen. Cause I'm sure that's going to be a pretty cool broadcast for Rick. 00:11:25 Speaker 1: Before we get to our interview with Jordan Chusterman, I want to tell you guys about Emerald Queen Casino's upcoming lineup of shows. Matt Matthews visits EQC on September 27th, Sons of Legion on October 4th, Gary Allen on October 9th, and WFC 199 on October 17th. Get your tickets today at EmeraldQueen.com. Emerald Queen Casino is the entertainment capital of the Northwest. And while you're there, if you checked out our episode on Wednesday, you saw we were at the BetMGM Sportsbook. No better place to watch the game. There's 70 dream seat loungers for premium viewing, dozens of 86-inch TVs, legal wagering on college and pro sports. You can download the BetEQC app for live wagering anywhere on the property. Catch every sport and every play at Emerald Queen Casino. For more details, visit EmeraldQueen.com. Please game responsibly. With Jordan, we didn't even talk too much about the offseason that's upcoming and who the Mariners should target and trades they should make. This was the start of what I think will be plenty of episodes on diagnosing what was wrong with the 2026 Mariners and how they're going to fix it going forward, how the process is going to be tweaked. And Jordan observes the whole league. He's a very, very, very strong Mariners fan. And he can get some perspective on what the Mariners are and what needs to change going forward. And I thought it was a pretty frank conversation. 00:12:55 Speaker 2: Just felt like three friends talking like Jordan's been great. We've, we've said this in the past, but we've gotten to know him really well over the years. We love seeing him in person at MLB events or when he's in Seattle. And now we're having him back on the podcast. And it was a really fun conversation. I mean, It was a conversation about the misery of the 2026 season. I mean, that part's not fun because we're hashing out a bad year, but it was fun for the three of us to get to all just really kind of sit and talk and hash it out. 00:13:24 Speaker 1: Won't keep you guys any longer. Let's get you to the interview with Jordan Schusterman. 00:13:29 Speaker 2: All right. 00:13:31 Speaker 3: We've got our. 00:13:31 Speaker 2: Friend Jordan Schusterman on with us. He is from Cespedes Family Barbecue. He's with Yahoo Sports, recurring guest on the pod. Jordan, I think I know the answer, but I feel obligated to start like this anyway. How are we feeling? 00:13:47 Speaker 1: Wow. What a win. What a win that was to get to 74 and 84. Hi, guys. It's been great to, as always, whenever I get to join you two, I say it every time. I'll say it at the end of the pod. I'll say it at the beginning of the pod. It's cool to see that the community that you guys have built And I say that because this is a season where it's good to kind of have some other people to look around at and just be like, man, how about this, huh? Mm-hmm. You know, you're going through this with others if you are a fan of a team that has a season like this. And I think you guys have... In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you guys have learned that, not that you guys aren't making good content that I'm sure does well when the team is good, but, you know, people... People also like to revel in the mess, and I don't know if that's shown in your engagement and views and whatever, but it wouldn't surprise me because it's kind of the nature of the beast that that's very modern. A modern fan experience is getting online and getting angry. 00:14:52 Speaker 3: Oh, people love to hate watch. 00:14:54 Speaker 2: If we've learned anything from this season, like, is it the same level of engagement as when they're going through a postseason run to the ALCS like last year? No, but there is a different side of this fan base and the fandom that almost makes other people like us an outlet for fans. And we have tried to take some pride in that where it's like, okay, we're diehards like everybody else. 00:15:16 Speaker 3: We're going through it like everybody else. 00:15:18 Speaker 2: And to talk to people during the year and have people say, oh, like the things I'm thinking in my head, I'll turn on the pod and you guys then say exactly that. I was like, all right, there is a part of this that's nice to feel like that we are connected with other fans and other fans are connected with us because we all go through it together. 00:15:33 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I would, I would just add to that. Right. And I've talked to you guys about this on and off the air, right? Like obviously my experience watching this team has changed since I have My job has become much more of a real thing. So do I still watch the Mariners more than the other teams? Yeah, although increasingly less so. Not just this season. That's just been true even over the last couple years. I've just been less inclined to stay up and watch them. And my whatever fandom I have, yeah, like I said, it's still the team I watch the most and enjoy generally if it's going well. But I mean, this year is unlike anything that I can remember just because... even as they've won a lot of games over the last half decade, there have been periods during the, of almost all of those seasons where it has been gotten really ugly, you know, and obviously not just them falling short, but like times where it's like, Oh man, you know, this is a real mess. Look at this embarrassing offense. Oh my God, look at this disaster signing or trade or blah, blah, blah. But those five seasons, they ended up with, with winning records with a lot of wins and, you know, a couple of trips to the post season and whatever. And that's really what I kind of focused on in what I wrote and will be on Yahoo Sports whenever this does get mathematically finalized, which is that, like, it wasn't as, it was ugly the whole season, and yet, and yet, three games, like, they had the division lead, what, at the beginning of July still? And, like, we've been talking about, oh, what they could have done in September against a crappy schedule, but As bad as it was, it was all still there, and yet that's when it somehow got even worse, and that's when they actually spiraled to a losing season and one of the most disappointing and unpleasant seasons that I think any of us have ever experienced watching this team. So it's really been something to behold, and man, oh, man, it's a group effort. Took everybody. Guys, took everybody. It did literally take everybody, even players that were not on the roster at the beginning of the year to then come to the roster midway through the season, Taylor ward and managed to set all sorts of Mariners records. But we get, we can get into that just to start off, Jordan, you're mentioning how bad it got in the second half. Why was it so much worse than the second half in your opinion? Well, I mean, like it's, you know, all kinds of people you can, you can point fingers at, but you know, one of the stats I, uh, I talked about, uh, on bumping Stacy yesterday, um, Which was, I guess, added to last night as well. 00:18:12 Speaker 2: I think. 00:18:13 Speaker 1: Yeah. 101 home runs allowed since the All-Star break. Well, that's fun. That seems like a lot. It sounds fake, right? I know that sounds like that can't be right. Again, the Seattle Mariners who play their games, have their games at T-Mobile Park. Yeah. It was just one homer last night, but three the night before. Yeah. So I think it's 101 home runs allowed since the All-Star break. That is, at least yesterday, was like 15 more than second place, which is the Rockies. And I know that's like a really specific one, but I think I am bringing that up because yes, as many years, it's not new to be like, wow, this offense stinks. Oh my God, they can't score. They're 28th in OPS and runs per game. And no, they got shut out again. And Look at all these catastrophic batting averages. And yeah, all those contributed too, right? But this franchise has been built on run prevention. And that is what has been the backbone of their success for the past five years. And the weird thing is that even last year, when they went to the CS, that reputation started to crack a little bit. And you weren't really talking about it that much because... They still won the division, and you were still getting some pretty seriously impressive performances, like Brian Wu, and even from guys like Logan and George, even throughout the injuries, and Bryce, whatever, certainly in the postseason at the end. This year, it was just like, what are you hanging your hat on on the mound? And for this franchise to end up in that spot, that was the safety net all along. And if that is gone, well, here you go. One of the most miserable collective second halves that you can possibly imagine. And it's just shocking though, right? Because of the personnel that is involved, because of the talent that is still involved, because of those glimmers, those occasional outings that any of these starters have given them, even occasionally in the second half. But for whatever reason, it just got that bad. And the real point to drive this home when we talk about run prevention, this is where I really started laughing about how, you know, much of a mess this has all become. Yeah. Because what would be another way you could say, well, oh, oh, well, this run prevention is not as good. Well, what could we blame for that, right? The defense. 00:20:45 Speaker 3: Oh, my God. 00:20:46 Speaker 1: This defense stinks. This defense is bottom five in every possible category, right? 00:20:52 Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, outs above average, they are lapping the pack. 00:20:56 Speaker 1: Historically bad, right? I think they're on track right now to be the worst ever in stack-ass. Right, or at least since tracking, right? Right. And so to have that, And then to also be serving up over a hundred homers, which has nothing to do with defense. Yeah. Here you are. 00:21:14 Speaker 3: Not good. 00:21:15 Speaker 1: So that, I mean, there it is, right? Like you, you've been, you've had this foundation on the mound that in theory could still exist with a lot of these personnel. And yes, injuries have contributed along the way. If we talk about the bullpen, particularly like not having brash players, I mean, it just cooked them, right? And that doesn't excuse not adding more at the deadline or adding more before the season, because I think Brash, we've kind of understand, is pretty tenuous from an availability and durability standpoint at this point, but they just never, I mean, it was so clear they were a guy or two short, not to mention how exhausted Bizzardo and Spire clearly are, and not to mention that Munoz was the worst he'd ever been for multiple months. So That's the thing though, right? You can focus on the offense and you can complain about T-Mobile Park as a hitter's park and you can say, oh my God, all these things and all that's true. But if you really want to understand why it got this bad, it's that the pitching that you could always count on completely capitulated after the break. Rotation and bullpen. 00:22:16 Speaker 3: So there you go. 00:22:17 Speaker 2: So if you were to pick one area where you said, okay, if I can only pick one specific facet of this team to significantly improve on this offseason, whether it be offense, bullpen, or defense? If I'm going to give you one of those three, what's most important to you? 00:22:35 Speaker 1: I mean, the thing is, it's more... I'll still focus on the pitching. When we talk about improving, the inclination is adding players, right? Yeah. And in that case, I think, yeah, I guess offense is still the answer. But I just feel like whether it's on the coaching staff, whether it's game planning, whether it's like, I don't know. Like, I just think that the pitching still, if you're going to be playing half your games at TMO Park, that should still be the hallmark of the franchise. And you have to get back to that. And I don't know what that means, but you have to get back to that because that is your rock. And yeah, last year you had a really good offense and you were hitting a ton of homers and you were walking and whatever. But yeah, I mean, to be honest, like I have not, I've not gotten anywhere close to off season planning, roster construction. Like I'm not in that mindset. So, um, I, I don't feel totally prepared to like give that answer in that context. 00:23:36 Speaker 3: Sure. 00:23:36 Speaker 1: But I'll stand by that, that I still think again, if you're figuring out what went wrong and what you need to raise the floor of the franchise to get back to having even coming close to achieving your ceiling, I still think it's, it's on the mound. Jordan, what was the tipping point of the season for you? Oh my God. Great question. What an awesome question. So, okay. So like, again, you can look at the schedule and you can like identify a few things. So objectively the answer is, uh, the Florida trip, right? So they win the series against the blue Jays. They're in first place. That's that their playoff odds are like 85% or whatever. Right. Um, July 5th, they go to Miami, get swept, go to Tampa, almost get swept. Right. But viscerally, I don't remember those games as much, I would say. So if I look at the second half where I was like, they... And here's the thing, right? It's not like they were playing, besides the, what was it, eight-game winning streak at the end of May against the A's and Mets when they were awful and D-backs, whatever. You know, that D-back series with a couple of walk-offs was like, all right, okay, maybe they got something. But it's not like they really were playing that well at any point in the first half either, right? So it's not, you know, it was hard to really get sold, but you still saw this opportunity ahead of them. You saw the playoff odds. Frankly, and fortunately for me, I was on vacation. And here's a story I sort of told on our podcast, but maybe not completely. The New York-Houston-Milwaukee road trip. Okay? 00:25:22 Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. 00:25:24 Speaker 1: So actually, yeah. Well, I don't, well, before I tell that story, like, is it sooner than that for you guys? Like, is there, I'll, I'll tell you about that. My very specific memory from that, that will always stick with me, but am I zeroing in on the right? I mean, obviously we're heading toward, you know, 22 to nothing. We'll get there, but, um, yeah. I felt pretty out on the team for most, uh, once July hit, I was feeling out. on the team Jordan, but I think the real tipping point for me was when Max Scherzer dominated them. 00:26:00 Speaker 3: Oh, I have a different answer. 00:26:02 Speaker 1: Okay. So that's later. That's the next, that's the you're, you're right. I will say, I actually, I do agree with you that like the Toronto series that Sunday. So that's August 30th. You're describing. That is a great answer. I do think that that was when I'd probably given up before then, but that is still a great answer for sure. Um, but yeah, but what about you, Lyle? Is it, I will give you. 00:26:26 Speaker 2: One specific moment and it was the night that we flew into Philly for all-star week. So I think that was Friday night and we're, we're with a friend, TJ and I are with a friend. We're out to dinner. We go get some drinks. There's this really, really cool, um, outdoor bar on the pier in Philly called Morgan that we're sitting there and we're, and we're having a good time. And I remember TJ and I sitting there together and up on our phone comes not just in the, I mean, it's in the middle of this losing streak in Florida, right? But up on our phone pops a highlight of Randy Rosarena, just dogging a ball in Tampa, giving absolutely like no level of hustle to it in any way whatsoever. You turn around the next pitch. Luis Castillo gives up a Homer. Luis looks furious. He's staring at Randy. And then to cap it all off, after the game and the post game, Randy comes out and says, yeah, I'm just doing what's best for me and looking out for myself in that moment, essentially trying to say he's avoiding an injury, but he's looking out for myself. And in that moment, paired with the losing streak, I turned to TJ and I said, this team is done. Like they're not making the playoffs. And that was, that was my tipping point. Yeah, that was mine. 00:27:36 Speaker 1: Which is so, and like, that's the other thing is like, that is a fair answer as well. But also, Isn't it unfair, but also... The fact that Randy... Far and away the biggest bright spot of the season. I mean, not even close, right? And his walk-off against the Cubs in the Kate Anderson debut, that is the... I'll remember that forever, too. That was incredible. So Randy's season... Which is now going to now completely lost to whatever because he's, you know, they're not paying him probably. 00:28:15 Speaker 4: Right. 00:28:16 Speaker 1: So you're right to be you were right to be mad at him then. But even by that point, he was clearly their best player. Right. Right. 00:28:22 Speaker 4: Right. 00:28:22 Speaker 3: Right. 00:28:23 Speaker 1: Even the one thing we're enjoying, we're mad at. 00:28:25 Speaker 2: So, I mean, I think TJ said it well the other day when we were just talking about pros and cons to bring it back next. 00:28:31 Speaker 3: Year, which is. 00:28:32 Speaker 2: He has not just objectively been the Mariners' best player this year, but he has been objectively one of the best outfielders in Major League Baseball this year, certainly offensively. But then when TJ highlighted the other side, I think he used the one-liner that really resonated with me, is everything else about Randy, like when you get away from the offense, embodies what this team needs to rid themselves. 00:28:54 Speaker 3: Of in 2027. 00:28:55 Speaker 2: It's the unfocused play, and it's the lapses in the field, and it's, you know, sometimes like... you can't know exactly when you're not in that clubhouse, but it definitely feels like, you know, at points he takes him selfish at bats and he's a little bit of a me, me person. Like, I think that's what culture wise needs to get somewhat fixed. 00:29:14 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't totally disagree with you, but I also think that what I will miss about him, and this is another thing that I don't, I guess it wasn't that Cubs game because if you remember the, They're down to their last out, and it's Weston Wilson and then Leo Riva. The point is that Randy's in the hole with two outs. and they just panned him on the bench, and he's just sitting there like he doesn't look like he's getting ready to hit. And can you freaking blame him, right? 00:29:48 Speaker 4: No. 00:29:50 Speaker 1: It's two outs, and he's in the hole, and it's Weston Wilson and Leo Rivas, right? Yeah. Two minutes later, he hits the walk-off homer. 00:29:57 Speaker 3: Right. 00:29:58 Speaker 1: And the reason I bring that up is like, yes, all your points. I think, I think I agree with some of them. I disagree with some of them, whatever. There's also something about Randy that's so awesome. And this is, this applied to him in Tampa, which again, they kind of, there's a reason they moved on from him because they were also kind of tired of a lot of the stuff that you're describing, which is totally true. The dude just shows up and balls. I mean, it doesn't matter who knows what Edgar Martinez is saying to him or who knows what. It doesn't matter. Like, Randy, you could not hold this guy even in this mess. The dude showed up and had the best year of his career. And that just speaks to his talent. This speaks to his unique ability to, yes, even if it's coming from the mindset of I'm doing all this for me, I'm doing all this to get paid. I'm doing all this because I'm the guy here. it's hard to get mad at him in a season like this where no one else was producing. So, but I, I I'm with you though. I do think that, uh, that, that the, the visual of that is, I mean, totally. I don't think it was causing them to lose Jordan. I just think it, he, with all the bad stuff that happened with this team, it showed up with him more like when he was, when he was messing up in the field or on the base paths or at the plate or in the clubhouse, uh, Like he's the main, it shows up worse with him. Think back to before the season. And we have to bring up this story again, when him and Cal have their misunderstanding in the WBC and Randy gets back to camp, he puts out a statement taking no accountability for it. And then his manager just says, yep, we're moving on as fast as possible. No problem guys. And that, that literally set the precedent of the season where something bad happens, uh, player doesn't take accountability for it. And the manager's like, Oh, we'll move on to tomorrow as fast as possible. And that just snowballed throughout the entire season. It was a huge reason why they weren't, weren't good. Yeah. And it was just right. I mean, the vibes, the vibes were just off, right? Like literally immediately. So, um, did. Does that mean they needed to trade for Eugenio Suarez? I don't think so, guys. No, I don't think Gino was going to fix that. I mean, they needed to score more runs. But let me tell you, though. Let me tell you my moment, okay? Because I will never forget this. And then just like this little stretch. Because to me, I mean, this stretch, I mean, I know that they won the Yankees, the last game of the Yankees series, won nothing to end... was a six-game losing streak, I guess, when at that point it was like they're never going to win again. Because they had lost. They were swept by the Rays at home before going out on that road trip. And it was just like, oh, they're going to go 0-9. I mean, they're going to lose all of these games. At that point, it was so bad that there was very little reason to expect anything. Whatever. They win that Friday. Or they win that Thursday. I'm in Maine, okay? Me and my wife went on an anniversary trip to Maine. And I... I wasn't working, obviously. I wasn't planning on totally unplugging. But I was like, okay, I don't know how it's going to work. I'm not hoping to be following along. And obviously, at this point, they're going on the stretcher. I'm like, well, I'm not going to be watching the Mariners. That Friday night, the next morning, we're going to wake up at 3 a.m. to go do the sunrise at Cadillac Mountain, which is like the easternmost point that you can see the sunrise in the continental U.S. So we have to go to sleep, right? We got to go to sleep early. so that we can wake up to go see the sunrise at three in the morning. And I can't sleep. And I'm just really frustrated. And it's like 10, 11, whatever. And this is the Astros game, the first game of that series. And if you recall, I'm like watching it on mute on my phone and I'm following it. And I'm just like, this is just like, why am I, I can't sleep. I'm so, and then they have this comeback. It was like, they had this ridiculous comeback in the eighth. This was Victor Robles, triple, Brock Rodden, uh, takes the lead. Okay. Oh no, that's in the 10th. They had the comeback in the eighth with also Brock Rodden. What am I talking about? We had a Brock Rodden ground rule double. Okay. That, that, that ties the game. Right. And I'm just like, this is crazy. What a win this would be. This is after one of those. I was like, okay, maybe, maybe they got some life. It's the Brock Rodden show. Right. And then I'm watching, I'm watching on my phone on mute in our, in our little Airbnb on the lake. And the Munoz bottom of the 10th is just like crumbling, right? And Christian Walker, Christian Walker connects, okay? He hits the ball. Again, I'm watching on mute. So I see him make contact. I've never X'd out of an app. I literally like closed the app and deleted the MLB app and Twitter in like one move. And then didn't log back on for five days. Okay. So I never even saw the ball land because you know what it looks like in Houston, right? I was just like, you know what? I don't need this. I'm done. So I completely disconnected. Now, the reason why that's funny is that then a couple of days later, they lose 22 to nothing. And I get some texts, some like cryptic texts from people like hinting at 22 to nothing. And I'm like, what are you talking about? 00:35:20 Speaker 3: I'm just remembering the best part of the story. 00:35:22 Speaker 1: I opened YouTube to watch something non-baseball related. And the first thing I see is your thumbnail saying, reacting to the worst loss in franchise history. And I was like, and I saw the little 22 to nothing, right? And I was just like, I was laughing so hard when I saw that. I was like, I couldn't quite tell what people were talking about. And you guys, I was laughing so hard. And then the last part of that story is that Julio throwing the ball into the stands. I didn't know about that part because I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, that was like three days later when I was catching up and I was home. I was like, all right, let's see how this 22 to nothing thing happened. And then I was like, Oh no. So anyway, I know that's a long winded way of saying the point is, is that that stretch I'll never forget for better or for worse. 00:36:25 Speaker 3: Um, yeah. 00:36:26 Speaker 1: And, but also I'm glad that I, I didn't, uh, really watch any of it except for the Christian Walker uh walk-off home run so. 00:36:33 Speaker 2: If there's as we're talking about all these infamous moments from the season is there one to you that jumps out above the rest or is it Walker or is is there another because it sounds like you tried to tune out a lot of it this year which. 00:36:45 Speaker 1: Is yeah I mean look I really wasn't I just wasn't watching this team I mean I was not I I it was not it was because to your point TJ it was pretty clear early on that it was not going to be an enjoyable ride even if they did you know back their way in So just the number of just brutal... I mean, they got walked off nine times. I don't know how many of those were home runs, but all of them, just all of those... Of course, any fan would say that, right, the walk-off losses are the ones that suck, but just the combinations of things that they were doing to get to those losses was just unfathomable. I mean, those were... Oh, Donovan Walton? I mean, like, you know? I mean, there's just... you can't even that weekend, right? I mean, that was just a couple of weeks ago, but right. Um, so many of the ones like that, the Boston loss, that was the other Julio, uh, catastrophe, um, in center. I would say that one stands out as, as especially egregious. Um, but, uh, and that was the day after the Max Scherzer, the Max Scherzer game. So, yeah, but fortunately I've, you know, kept my distance. 00:37:56 Speaker 3: It, it's funny. 00:37:58 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm going to speak for TJ a little bit here. So I'm talking on behalf of my good friend, but. You can correct me if I'm wrong here on this, but I think the one that I know drove him the craziest wasn't even a specific in-game moment. The most furious I saw TJ get all the year was when the Colt Emerson stuff went down. Not just the injury, which is, look, injuries happen. But when you found out that not only he'd been hiding it for months on end, but somehow not a single person around him ever figured out that something was wrong with him. A teammate, a coach, a training staff, like front office, anybody. figured out this was going down and it led to a really brutal rookie season. And now he's not going to swing a bat all off season per the reports. 00:38:39 Speaker 1: So that was after Jerry's quote. I mean, yeah, right. 00:38:42 Speaker 3: That's it. 00:38:43 Speaker 1: That was just brutal. Right. I mean, but yeah. 00:38:48 Speaker 2: Let's compare two players. They're making similar contracts, but you have to pick one guy to be in your lineup. Player 1 hit 300. He had an 840 OPS and a 141 WRC +. 41% better than the league average. Player 2 hit 185. He had a 563 OPS and a 63 WRC +. 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So Jordan, how much of the blame of this season are you going to put on Dan Wilson? 00:40:57 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:40:57 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that, uh, it really is just one of the, assuming that this is, we're coming to the end here. Um, one of the stranger managerial resumes in the history of the sport. Right. You know, take over at the end, win some games, fall short, take the team further than has ever gone before in franchise history. And followed by the worst, most disappointing seasons of franchise history. Think about how, of course, last October ended. It was amazing. Like I felt like, I think the way that I put it on the radio at some point this season was like, Normally you aren't talking about managerial bullpen moves in the regular season this often. And maybe I'm wrong there, but I feel like as someone who covers the whole league, I do feel like this is something that is not as common anymore. You just don't have as many managers making decisions that are leaving, that you're scratching your head. In the regular season, people usually don't have the energy to... Once you get to the postseason, it's a totally different ballgame for everybody involved because the stakes are up there. Every pitch feels so important. That's the scrutiny. But in the regular season, usually even fans, I feel like, don't have the energy or aren't even paying attention enough to care this much about bullpen management. And yet, boy oh boy, did we just have... time and time again, I was just like, I cannot believe. And it was just like coming up with every possible way. It was not just the same mistake over and over. It was things that you couldn't, you weren't even thinking about. And you have to always remember in the regular season, yes, there's, there's restrictions involving who's available and who's not. That's true for every team. And that's the part that we can't, um, necessarily fault, fault Dan for, but Like I said, it just felt like the amount of times that we were talking about that, it felt really, really unusual. Like, really, really unusual. 00:43:03 Speaker 3: You know what I think? 00:43:04 Speaker 1: That says a lot. 00:43:05 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:43:06 Speaker 1: But I also think it's more than that. Like, that's not why they're here, right? 00:43:10 Speaker 3: Right. 00:43:10 Speaker 1: How Dan Wilson managed a bullpen is not why they're here, right? It hasn't helped, I don't think. But that's not why they're here. It's on the list somewhere. But it's also just... your culture and getting the best out of players and having everyone rowing in the same direction. And also just feeling like that they're in positions to succeed. It's just hard to argue that, that that's what was taking place this year based on how many players got worse. Right. 00:43:41 Speaker 2: I mean, even to your point about the bullpen decisions, which was a huge proponent of the Dan Wilson talking points throughout, not just this year, but really his two ish years as a manager. 00:43:52 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:43:53 Speaker 2: It's just that, In Major League Baseball, I think you make a great point that people aren't picking apart bullpen decisions like that, usually until you get to October. But I would say even more so than that, managers aren't just this big of a story with most fan bases, maybe unless you get to October. Usually managers are just, you know, they're kind of white noise in the background. You hear from them every day. They explain the process. Maybe there's a thing or two throughout the year that fans or media scratch their head at, but... he wasn't white noise by any means over these two years. In fact, he, especially this year, he was the story. I mean, you should see her comments in DM section on a daily basis. 00:44:35 Speaker 3: I mean, he like. 00:44:36 Speaker 2: On, you know, in places like that, when you talk to people, when you listen to podcasts, when you see it online, I mean, it's just like, he is the story and a manager can't be the story of a team because when they are, and that's the main talking point, it's probably not a good thing. 00:44:50 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:44:50 Speaker 1: It's, I can't really think of a situation where, I mean, you know, whatever you have, like the Pat Murphy's of the world and you say, okay, he's a huge part of why the Brewers winning and that may or may not be true. but you still end up kind of talking more, but it's more of just like, Oh, like that's great. He's kind of, he's over this thing, but it's not, it's not like, and I've watched it up close with Steven Vogt in Cleveland, right? Like I understand, but I still, he's doing something right or they're doing something right, but it doesn't feel like the most important thing. Whereas, yeah, I agree with you. I think that to be this part of the story and, and frankly, just because of how last season ended, And because of how he got the job in the first place, he was always going to be working from a deficit of credibility. And so he had to, and, and there's other situations where that's true. And we've, I mean, my God, San Francisco, right? Like I was cautiously optimistic about Tony, Tony Vitello kind of, or at least I was talking myself into it. Is he the reason the giants are disaster? No, but there've been a lot of points along the way where it's like, well, this guy doesn't really look like he knows what he's doing because he's never done before. Okay. It was a surprise, surprise. Right. And so, There's other times, there's other managers that get criticized. The other side of the spectrum is like what's going on in Cincinnati, right? With Terry Francona. It's like, well, why are we still bringing this guy back to do these things? Or in a most extreme case, like a Tony La Russa, right? With the White Sox, right? There are versions of this that become a lot more extreme and they do become the story. But in Dan Wilson's case, and especially because you think about the people... This is where it gets interesting, right? Because Why was the team so hyped before the season beyond Seattle? The players, right? The roster. 00:46:38 Speaker 3: For sure. 00:46:39 Speaker 1: Okay. And so I think if you're, it's literally like the reverse manager of the year logic, right? Because if you're a person who's not following the Mariners on a regular basis, you look at the roster, you say, well, this team should win 90 games. They should be going to the World Series. They should be blah, blah, blah, blah. You say, oh my God, and then you check in and whatever, and like, oh my God, what's gone wrong? Oh, all these players aren't doing well. Well, what's the thing that I don't really know? I've only heard bad things about Dan Wilson. Well, he's clearly, that's not going great, you know? At the same time, I bring that up because it's like, one of the things that I have continued to find fascinating, this applies to multiple sports, but it's just natural. Fans don't want to blame players. They just don't. They just don't. It's not fun. Those are the guys you're rooting for. Those are the guys that when they are playing well, even when they are giving you these sparse moments of serotonin, they're the ones doing it, right? And they're the ones whose jerseys you buy and who you cheer for. It's never the coaching staff, never the managers. And that's why people always want to call for the coaching staff to get changed and the manager to get changed because the players are harder to change generally or at least it's less comfortable, right? when Cal's having the worst season in the history of whatever it's, you know, now the guys that you have no attachment to the Taylor wards, the ref Snyder's the ones that come in and suck. Well, but, but even in that case, who do you get mad at the front office? You know, you say, Oh my God, the front office did it again. They picked the wrong guy. They put them in the wrong place. That's just natural. 00:48:14 Speaker 3: It's really interesting. 00:48:15 Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's necessarily always been that way, but, at some point as all the Mariners enter this off season and reflect like whether it was the coaching staff was contributing to them not being in position to succeed, which I think is a fair thing to assume at this point or to take away from the season. Um, the players were, were, were all way worse than they should have been. And that doesn't mean that they aren't talented because a lot of them have shown a lot of good stuff in the past, but that is accountability that is harder to feel because you can't just be like fire him. I mean, yeah, you can get rid of some players. You could trade them. You could, send them down, not give them the starting job. Sure. There's ways to do that, but it's a lot easier to just say, fire the coaching staff and get mad at the front office and the guys that aren't playing. Are you expecting any other changes besides the coaching staff? Besides the coaching staff or besides the manager? We'll do besides the manager. I think that I would assume there will be changes. And honestly, this is not, I'm not reporting anything. Like I don't, I don't know. It just doesn't really make any sense logically. to this is just normally how it works. 00:49:22 Speaker 4: Right. 00:49:22 Speaker 1: I mean, if you if you're if you're actually bringing in someone new from the outside, hopefully those people you would assume you would assume. But should we assume? I don't know. And last time they didn't. They normally have people that they not necessarily overhauling the whole thing. Maybe you're keeping some pieces here and there. I would I would still be at this point very surprised if the front office changes whatsoever for better or for worse. I just don't think because I think that like that body of work is more something that and frankly, my read is just that this is not an ownership group that is interested in seismic changes to that degree for better or for worse, you know. and how much the timing of this off season and the CBA and all that stuff impacts that. But yeah, I just, I don't, I think that it will be a lot easier for them to say this was, which is the sad part is it is true. Like they did hit the first percentile outcome, which like is not normal. People deserve blame for that and they'd need to find ways to correct it, but it was just an all time, you know, year from hell as Bill Simmons would say. So, Mariners fan, Mariners number one, Mariners hater, Bill Simmons. I will say that actually might be my favorite subplot of the season. Is Bill Simmons tweeting about the Mariners. It has been, and I don't know if you heard him talk about it in the pod too, just amazing stuff. I mean, wow. 00:50:51 Speaker 2: I mean- The clip he put out a week or two ago where he's just like, I hate their guts. And it feels like he's been in this thing his whole life because he starts going on. He's like, I got to tell you, these Mariners fans. He's still doing it. Did you see what he posted today? Oh, did he drop George Kirby off his fantasy team? Yeah, that was hilarious. He's like, it's time to go. But when he actually posted his clip, it made it sound like he'd been watching his whole life because he goes, man, these Mariners fans, I swear, it's like they hate the manager. They hate the general manager. It's like, wow, you've been. 00:51:21 Speaker 3: Added into the pack, Bill. 00:51:23 Speaker 1: So anyway, why did I even bring that up? I don't know. But hey, I mean, that's as much national scrutiny as the Mariners are really going to get, right? 00:51:33 Speaker 3: Right. No doubt. 00:51:35 Speaker 1: More people heard that than... most other baseball podcasts, I can promise you that, if not all of them. 00:51:41 Speaker 2: We got handfuls of texts that day. It's like, do you guys hear Bill Simmons trashing the Mariners? It's like, oh, we saw. 00:51:48 Speaker 1: We saw. 00:51:49 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was crazy. All right, let me ask you this, since we've been on this manager's topic. Is there one specific trait where, assuming the Mariners will be looking for a new manager this offseason, is there one specific trait that you want to see the next guy have. 00:52:08 Speaker 1: Man, I mean, this is the thing. Like, I don't, I don't like talking about managers. 00:52:12 Speaker 4: That's also what's been stupid and so exhausting about this. It's like, I don't even want to be put in a position to have to explain what a good manager is other than say, whatever that is not, it's not that. 00:52:23 Speaker 3: There, you know what? 00:52:25 Speaker 2: Let me twist something up. And you're actually a good person to ask about this while we have you. So instead of talking about key traits, let me just do this. So I don't know who the Mariners are going to hire as their presume next manager. 00:52:37 Speaker 3: Nobody does. 00:52:37 Speaker 2: I'm sure they're going to, well, if they're smart, they'll go and interview a lot of different candidates and experience may come into play. It may be somebody who's done it before. That may be what they want, but let's just, let's just say they try to go after a younger guy, try to almost find their Mike McDonald's where you get the young kind of like brain, like, you know, like whiz kid who's an up and coming manager and you hit the right guy. 00:53:03 Speaker 3: Um, TJ and I. 00:53:05 Speaker 2: Got to talk to him for a bit this year and we were blown away. And you know this guy better than we do. So I just thought I'd throw this out for people. Because we're probably going to bang the drum on Kai Correa for a while until they hire their new manager. Because we think he is going to manage at some point. It's just a question of when. So again, I don't know if they're going to hire this guy or not. I don't know who it's going to be. But just because we've been talking about him and we'll continue to talk about him. And you and Jake have also gotten to know him certainly better than we have. what about getting to know him over the years has impressed you about what he does as a coach? 00:53:40 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:53:40 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a little too close to this one to speak on it too. Uh, but, um, yeah, I mean, guys, um, I guess I would just say in simple terms, um, there is nobody with the attention to detail that I have really ever encountered, um, in the sport. Um, and that comes down to just general game planning. Obviously defensive, defensive positioning has been something that he's developed a quite a strong reputation for. Uh, but yeah, I mean, Kai, he, Kai's in that, he's in that bucket of, of younger coaches that have made really strong impressions on multiple coaching staffs on, I know this year with the Mets obviously has not gone well. Um, the one thing I would say there, and again, this is not having, uh, talked to Kai recently, but obviously they brought him in there to be, I mean, it wasn't a small thing to get him out of Cleveland to begin with. I'll say that. And I will also say that them keeping Andy Green, I think would make it, there was a scenario, I can imagine a scenario where had they gone in a different direction with the manager, it would maybe be more likely to see him end up somewhere else. Now you still have a situation where and now we can zoom out beyond Kai, right? As they are thinking about candidates, there's the level of, well, okay, if you're going to try and poach someone that's already a manager, Steven Vogt, for example, but there's other ones that you could say, especially other ones like Tori Lovello is a name that I've thought about, I think, and we'll see what happens with Arizona. Someone that has at least been speculated could be available. It's a lot more complicated. It's just the nature of the industry. It's a lot more complicated to pursue guys under contract as managers than Than it is to pursue guys under contract as bench coaches. That said, contracts are contracts, contracts are different sizes. And there's a lot of things that go into pursuing guys that are already working somewhere else. So that's what that's what I'll say about Kai. But yeah, I mean, just the detail or like the baseball knowledge. I mean, literally every time I talk to him, I'm just like, how did like. what? Like in a way that's just like, I like to think I'm watching a lot of baseball and I'm noticing a lot of things. And then he's pointing something out about something like, he'll be like, Hey, did you see this? I'll be like, no. And I'll be like, Whoa, that's what happened to TJ. 00:56:12 Speaker 2: And I, and it's funny, he actually was the one who started talking to us and he started talking to us. Cause Speaking of the guy, I mean, he has a ridiculous photographic memory. 00:56:22 Speaker 1: I mean, he remembers a lot. And in other simple terms, Kai pays attention. 00:56:27 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:56:27 Speaker 2: And I was going to say, and that's how it started because I think he sees some of our stuff, like both the Mariner stuff and the baseball trivia stuff on Bullpen Banner. So it led to a conversation. And we ended up just talking for about a half hour. And he was great. And TJ and I walked away and we looked at each other. We were like, holy hell. 00:56:44 Speaker 3: Like that guy is sharp. 00:56:46 Speaker 1: So, so obviously Mariners or not, whatever. I hope Kai, I mean, he's been very good to me, um, during my career. Um, you know, I, I, I consider him a friend, someone with division three baseball roots. Like that's how I ended up getting connected with him to begin with, just because the people that come out of that coaching world, um, have really grinded and have really kind of checked a lot of boxes along the way. Um, to your point. Yeah. I think he's of course someone that who has not managed yet that you can imagine managing someday. So who knows if that's something that they're going to go after. But like I said, I think that if you are thinking about guys who experience, I mean, Rocco Baldelli is another one that I, that I have to imagine, but the, the great unknown in all of this, and this is where we can kind of leave this part of the conversation open-ended because listen, discussing what is a key trait, what do you want to see? You could do that. It's not, it's not like it's not an interesting, I just don't feel, I don't feel like I'm, I, it's not that something I haven't thought about, but I don't know. Um, But what I will say is the great unknown in all of this, let's assume the front office is staying, is, okay, who wants to go work with Jerry and Justin, right? Because that's the part that we just don't have a great understanding of, is are there relationships around the game that they have or don't have? Let's say we're going out, we're going external, right? Right. that we know or don't know about because, and I can, I can say this without even giving examples. It happens all the time when there's managerial, you, you find out, Oh, they got hired. And then you'll be like, Oh, because he goes back with him. There's also, I would guess, oftentimes the opposite that you never hear about, which is, oh, why didn't they hire that guy? Oh, because that guy hates that guy or that guy's never spoken to that guy in his life and he has no interest in uprooting his family to go work for someone that he doesn't know, doesn't trust, et cetera, et cetera, right? 00:58:41 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:58:41 Speaker 1: We have no sample size. The only managers have been Scott Service, who Jerry DePoto had, of course, deep history with prior. And... Dan Wilson was standing there and they said, Hey Dan, come manage. Uh, someone said that. And now here we are. 00:59:04 Speaker 4: Right. 00:59:05 Speaker 1: So we haven't been through this process. No, you know, we don't know what this is like. And, that's the start that's the stuff we have no idea who's gonna come work for the mariners if everyone if the baseball community can collectively agree that if jerry and justin have a bad year in 2027 they're out of a job That's part of it too. Now let me, well, that's, that's part of it too. Sure. 00:59:27 Speaker 3: That's what I was going to say. 00:59:28 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:59:28 Speaker 1: But, but I'm going to spin it in a different way, right? A very simple way to wrap up this conversation. So those are the unknown quantities or the unknown elements of this search, right? Whatever that means. Um, so that, and that's the most important thing. And it's just like, maybe we'll find out, maybe we'll know, like that's, that's the most important thing, but here's, let's put it in even more simple terms. and this is as cliche as it sounds, there's only 30 of these jobs, right? Guys want to manage. And there are a lot of, I can imagine there's all kinds of candidates who either maybe have never spoken to Jerry DePoto. Maybe they're best friends with Jerry DePoto. Maybe they're somewhere on that spectrum. They're going to see that job open and they're going to see the players on the team. And they're going to say, yeah, I would love to go. Like, that it should still be an extremely attractive job, even factoring in all of this stuff. I think I really do believe that. So that should give them in position to presumably bring people in, whether they have relationships with these people or not. This is a team that we think about it as, Oh, you just said TJ. Oh, the pressure to win now. No, no, no, no. These guys, the people that are interviewing, they're saying, yeah, I'm going to go. I'm going to win now. I believe in myself. I'm going to go manage whether I've done it before or not, whether it's someone that's, you know, one stuff in the past or whether it's someone who's never done it before, they're going to say, like, think about that, right? If you're a first-time manager, what a roster to have a first-time manager, you know, to have that. And if you've done it before, you say, oh, I can get this team to the postseason. Look at all these play, right? So it should still be really attractive. Just gets back to the thing before. We just don't know who's going to want, um, And obviously the other side, what, what is the organ as you asked TJ or Lyle, like what is the organization looking for? What is the priority? So, right. Those are my big picture manager thoughts. And I will, that was a good dry run. Cause I'm sure it won't be the last time I'll be sharing those. I'll probably, I think I'm doing bumping Stacy one more time next week, presumably the day after this is finally over. So then maybe I'll, you know, that was good. That was nice practice for me. Thank you. 01:01:40 Speaker 3: Sure. Listen, we're springboard. We're perfect springboard. 01:01:43 Speaker 2: Let me, let me hit on one more thing with you before we, before we wrap this up. And this is a conversation that I'm sure every Mariners fan has had north of a hundred times at this point. But I think as he wraps up his fifth season in major league baseball, it's, it's another interesting one to have. How do you view Julio as a player at this point? 01:02:02 Speaker 1: It's a great question. I think that these past few months have been the closest that I've come to being like, damn, like, this ain't good enough. I have defended Julio at every turn. Now this doesn't mean I think he's doomed, right? I think as I've heard someone else say it, I don't know who said it, or I've heard it. I think the concept of like closing the book on his chances of returning to MVP, top five MVP finisher. I think that is too dramatic. I'm not, I'm not there. it's as simple as the, this is a 25 year old still with, you know, 99th percentile physical tools who has accomplished a lot in this league. I'm not, I'm not barring an injury. Like there's, it just doesn't make sense to say that he can now never discover, rediscover the best version of him. 01:03:03 Speaker 3: Right. 01:03:04 Speaker 1: But whatever it means to find an approach to find some sort, like, yes, he'll probably, he's probably always going to be chasing, but, There are players that are like, we've seen him do it, right? It's still in there. But this was absolutely a season that requires reflection and adjustment in a way that, frankly, I never really felt that strongly about with him beforehand. In a way that, frankly, if we also talk about it with Cal, like what Cal's shown over the last month, the way I've phrased it on the radio a few things, Cal's pretty far down my list of concerns. going into 2027. 01:03:42 Speaker 3: Agreed. 01:03:42 Speaker 1: He's, he's, and boy, if that had not happened over these last month, like Matt, you know, it's hard to imagine the season being more bleak, but you have that with Cal that you can, you can lean on. It's not saying you're expecting 60 homers next year, but he's been one of the best catchers in the league again for the last month and a half. And I expect him to still be that moving forward with Julio. It is at this point still clearly quite a range. I think the biggest question though, we've spent, I mean, literally five years now, just like talking about the fluctuation of the offense, but, the defense just completely falling apart was shocking. And, like, that is a thing, though, that is going to require– that is the thing that maybe is not going to last forever. I mean, I believe his physical sprint speed stuff was still there, but that was a concerning trend. Do I think he can't get back to being a plus center fielder? No, but that was holding up his profile in a really real way in the base running as well. And it was bad. But, you know, if we're going super pro Julio, super Julio defender, this guy can do no wrong. If you want to spin it that way, you could say, wow, what a catastrophic season. He went 20-20 and started 150 games in center field. It's a hell of a player to have. But that's fine. People are right to be frustrated and disappointed and let down by what he was able to do this year. But I guess my main point is closing the book on him getting back to something that's closer to an MVP. I'm not doing that yet. I'm not doing that yet. 01:05:14 Speaker 2: I think where I stand on it is it's absolutely possible that he can, and this is less about Julio himself, but more I think where my frustration is starting to lie is it's just. 01:05:24 Speaker 3: Time for the organization to build.... 01:05:28 Speaker 2: The team in a way that is not overly reliant on him being an MVP. Because if he becomes an MVP and you've built this team around him to like, in a lot of ways, this is who I've essentially started to compare Julio to a lot of times when he has the streaky play is like, if people could view him more as an Adam Jones type of player, when he's, and then when he's at his best, he's playing better defense rather than, Oh, well he's on the same page. He's on the same level as Bobby with junior. 01:05:56 Speaker 1: Yeah. 01:05:56 Speaker 2: If the Mariners and fans could maybe start to pivot off that a little bit, where you could say he's a really good player. I mean, Adam Jones in his prime was a really good player. And Julio's ceiling is obviously higher than that. But you don't build your team around an Adam Jones. You would get additional significant offensive pieces to help build a really nice core that you hope wins 90 games. And if Julio turns into an MVP, it's 100. But you're not overly relying on him to be the aircraft carrier. 01:06:25 Speaker 3: If that makes sense. 01:06:25 Speaker 1: I think that is, I think that actually is a great way to put it because it is more of a commentary on the whole operation, which is fine. I mean, he's, he's a very important part of that. But, but yeah, I, and I would say, here's another way to think about it, right? Cal plus Julio can and should still be one of the strongest position player duos in the league. That, like that should still be, I mean, I guess this year it ends up being like five war, which again, for one player, obviously doesn't sound very good, but it could be 10 easily. And I guess it's probably getting close to that most, but like, if you have a kind of a 10 war foundation, which I think these guys have shown they're closer to that than what they were this year, that's a hell of a place to, to start your lineup. Um, but, uh, but I think that in terms of Julio himself, I think what you said is correct. 01:07:21 Speaker 3: So it's fair. 01:07:22 Speaker 1: You know ball, Lyle. 01:07:23 Speaker 3: Jordan, it's always fun. 01:07:24 Speaker 1: No surprise. 01:07:26 Speaker 3: What'd you say? 01:07:26 Speaker 1: I said you know ball. We're not surprised. Lyle made a good point. 01:07:31 Speaker 3: Well, how nice of you. You should tell people in our comment section the same thing. Hey. 01:07:36 Speaker 1: Jordan, this is always fun. 01:07:37 Speaker 2: We love having you on. We love talking ball with you. You were about to say something else? 01:07:43 Speaker 1: Well, you know what they say. They don't leave comments on nobody's. 01:07:47 Speaker 2: You know, listen, listen, you got to make people feel one way or another. So whether it's like people are fickle, right? Like one minute, one minute, they'll say, well, this is great. The next minute they'll say, you're the absolute worst. Like, welcome to social media. Welcome to doing content. 01:08:03 Speaker 3: This is, yeah, it's the name of the game. You know what you sign up for. 01:08:06 Speaker 1: So, all right. Well, I will. 01:08:10 Speaker 3: Yeah. 01:08:10 Speaker 1: All right. I wasn't, I'm not going to say what I was going to say. I'll save that for when we're done recording. Thank you all for, thank you both for, Having me on, this is so nice. Hopefully we will do it again in the off season at some point, whatever that means. Probably it means they've done a bunch of stuff before December 1st, and then you can just talk about that for some amount of time. And hopefully I'll join you in January, February. We'll make it happen. 01:08:34 Speaker 3: That'd be awesome. You're the best, Jordan. Appreciate you. 01:08:37 Speaker 1: Thank you both. 01:08:40 Speaker 2: Shout out to Jordan. We always love having him on. Hopefully you guys enjoyed the conversation. We certainly did. It was fun to just talk a bunch of things through about really just the full picture of the 2026 season as it obviously is coming to a close this weekend. 01:08:54 Speaker 3: And then we're going. 01:08:55 Speaker 2: To have a lot of other things to talk about when the season ends. So we'll see what the final four games look like. We'll say it one more time. Just use it to appreciate Rick Riz and the greatness that is Mariners royalty because he's done it for 41 years and deserves all the praise in the world. So final four games, we'll see what it has in store for us with that. It'll just, that'll just about wrap up this edition of the Marine layer podcast. You guys know the drill. If you want to listen to the full-form podcast, you can do so wherever you get your audio pods. Go download these episodes if you're listening. Please rate and review and leave it five stars. It really helps a ton. You can also check out our YouTube page and go hit subscribe on YouTube if you're doing so, if you're watching on YouTube. You can also find our website, which is marinelayerpod.com. Go get some merch, like all our merch is on our website. If you guys want a hoodie or a long-sleeve shirt for fall season, you can find it there. You can find our Patreon there. Episodes are all there. It's marinelayerpod.com. And then find us all across social media. We're posting content every day at marinelayerpod. 01:09:54 Speaker 3: That's TJ. I'm Lyle. As always, we thank you guys for tuning in. We'll talk to you soon.