Episode 464: Which Mariners Managerial Candidate Is The Best?

00:00:00 Speaker 1: Welcome to episode number 464 of the Marine Layer podcast. There has been some reported names out there about who the Mariners could interview or hire for their managerial job. We'll go over the pros and cons of each of these candidates. 00:00:13 Speaker 2: Reminder to you guys, before we start the podcast, just make sure if you're watching on YouTube that you go hit subscribe. If you're listening, go leave a written review, download the episodes. And when you leave a written review as well, just leave a five-star review. It really does help if you do. Find us on our website too, marinelayerpod.com. You can find all of our merch, all our Patreon stuff, our episodes. It's all at the website. And then check us out across social media at marinelayerpod. 00:00:37 Speaker 3: Let's get it rolling. 00:00:52 Speaker 1: And welcome to this episode of the Marine Lair podcast, part of the Just Baseball podcast network, recording here on Tuesday evening, September 29th. The Mariners season has now been over for about 72 hours once this episode comes out. 00:01:08 Speaker 3: Lyle, how are we feeling? 00:01:12 Speaker 4: Calm. 00:01:13 Speaker 2: I'm going to be honest. 00:01:16 Speaker 3: Wow. 00:01:17 Speaker 2: I already told you on Sunday night, and I told everybody. There has been such a sense of calm in the last 72 hours, partly because the season's over and we don't have to watch the team play anymore, this iteration of the team, and potentially some other potential news that's gone down in that time period too has also established a real sense of calm. But yeah, sense of calm. 00:01:39 Speaker 1: Well, you said it was going to free your brain. Have you put that to use yet? 00:01:45 Speaker 2: No, I'm not feeling the whole limitless effect that Bradley Cooper felt in the movie. Not yet. but definitely a sense of calm, which is funny, me saying a sense of calm. Now, I'm a loose cannon when it comes to the Mariners. One little thing could set off a chain of reactions, which just gets me absolutely firing again. But for now, telling you the truth, I feel pretty calm. It's been a nice refresher for the season to end and certain news to go down. 00:02:12 Speaker 1: Well, it probably helps that there's been no games going on and there's nothing for you to react to. I would hope here in the next couple of weeks we'll have something to react to, but they said they're going to take their time and they might take their time with this whole process. So we do have a handful of names, as we mentioned on Monday afternoon's episode, that we're going to dive into a little bit more, a little bit more detail, some pros and cons of each of these candidates. But before we dive into those, now that we've had some more time to digest the Jerry DiPoto press conference, and Justin Hollander going on Seattle Sports Today on Tuesday as of recording, do you have any more thoughts on what the top executives for the Mariners said about this season? 00:02:57 Speaker 2: I mean, it's still kind of wild that Jerry publicly admitted it'd be warranted for him to not have a job. That was kind of wild. 00:03:09 Speaker 3: That, like, that just pisses me off, man. 00:03:11 Speaker 2: Does it? Yes, absolutely. 00:03:15 Speaker 1: Because that's the whole thing about accountability, right? Like Jerry and his presser said, like bad culture is tolerating a level below our standards, tolerating like a level of effort below our standards. I don't really question Jerry's effort. I'm sure he's trying, but results are, you know, part of it. If like results are below standard, then the accountability is usually losing your job. So where he says, yeah, I haven't reached our standards by not hiring the right manager and not adding the right players to the roster and going 10 games under 500. And I heard Salk on Brock and Salk say that he talked to an executive that labeled the Mariners team this year as a 95 win baseball team, meaning there were 19 games worse than they should have been. I mean, usually being 19 games worse than what you should have been does get you fired. Like that is accountability. That's all the accountability that Jerry was talking about. 00:04:17 Speaker 3: No, it is. 00:04:20 Speaker 2: Again, the reality, whether you want to call it harsh, truthful, or any other adjective in between is I, I think the lockout is saving this front office currently. 00:04:34 Speaker 1: Look, they took account. They put the blame on themselves. They pointed the finger at themselves as they should, because they put the Mariners in this situation. that unfolded this 2026 season and they're going to have to live with it. And now their actions are going to have to back up what their words are saying. They get like, say all these things and then roll into next season with an outfield of Julio Rodriguez, Michael Arroyo, Dom Canzone, and Laz Montez. And then we're like, Oh boy, if we're, we're aiming to get better on defense, if we're aiming to, you know, be better offensively, like that, that doesn't seem like a path to that. So You know, I'm in like wait and see mode on that. So that's probably all I have left to take away. 00:05:19 Speaker 2: I mean, I will say Hollander on Brock and Salk here on Tuesday, I thought was a really good interview. We said Jerry said all the right things in his presser and he did. I think Hollander said a lot of the right things when he was on with Brock and Salk. And I've actually always said that about Hollander. I think he actually has a pretty decent, for the most part, pulse on the fan base. I think he gets it. I think he understands the virtue of being a fan. he started the show and started his interview by just apologizing to everybody for everything that people got put through this year and saying, we have to be better. We know we have to be better. And that's saying all the right things. So I know Hollander had his one hiccup this year when he decided to publicly call out a bunch of Twitter trolls about the training staff, which yeah, that one, maybe that one wasn't his best, but I actually think for the most part, he has a pretty decent pulse for the fan base. 00:06:11 Speaker 1: I have a both positive way and negative way to look about this. I'll give Jerry credit. He's come a long way when doing press conferences. The difference between Jerry three years ago and his 54% press conference and what we saw on Mondays is very immense. And what reminded me of this is watching some of the clips of David Stern's talk to the New York media. David Stern's sounds like a kid who has always been the smartest guy in class by far, which he has been. But the problem is it's like we talk about major league baseball players, not really living real lives, given that they make millions of dollars and they have a very powerful union backing them. And they get all these benefits that normal people will never even sniff of in their everyday lives. Being that smart is another thing, right? Where you are always just You always have that sense that you have an IQ higher than everyone else around you. Where in a setting, you try and show that off a little bit when you're sitting up there and talking. And David Stearns is just mumbo-jumboing his way through a bad season. But Jerry, while that was more so him three years ago, he didn't really show any of that in the press conference on Monday, which is great. So shout out to Jerry for taking those steps forward. in that and just being transparent, accountable and straight to the point and something that fans can very easily digest. The problem is they're just words. Like if Jerry does not do enough this off season, then no one cares what he says. Same with Hollander. They can apologize all they want. They can tell us what's wrong all they want, but unless they do something about it, then it doesn't matter. 00:07:58 Speaker 2: I have two thoughts stemming from everything you just said. Number one, picture this 12 hour car ride, four person car, yourself, That could be me. That could be you. That could be anybody who's listening. Yourself, Jerry DePoto, Craig Breslow, and David Stearns. Oh, God. 00:08:15 Speaker 1: Let me see if I can pull up a David Stearns quote here. 00:08:21 Speaker 2: I mean, dude, like, talk about the ego boosting that would go on in that car ride. You found a Stearns one? 00:08:31 Speaker 3: I found a clip. Can you listen to this? 00:08:33 Speaker 2: Of Stearns? 00:08:34 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:08:36 Speaker 2: I can listen. 00:08:36 Speaker 1: Yeah. you guys tell me like how relatable is this to the everyday human? When someone talks, talks to you like this. 00:08:43 Speaker 4: I had some time to kind of process what conclusions have you and the rest of the front office come to about what you can do differently to make sure that you don't end up in a situation like this next year. Yeah. 00:08:54 Speaker 5: I think as, as we reflected on how the start of the season went the way it did, we, and I made a number of decisions. That created the potential for almost like an uncapped downside scenario. 00:09:14 Speaker 3: Who talks like that, man? 00:09:16 Speaker 2: Somebody who went to an Ivy League school. Not your everyday Arizona State grad like us. Yeah, no. 00:09:24 Speaker 1: How hard is it to say we put ourselves in a bad situation? 00:09:29 Speaker 2: Again, four-person car ride. Yourself, Breslow, Jerry, David Stearns. 00:09:34 Speaker 3: I would open the door. Hopefully I'm not driving. 00:09:37 Speaker 2: Also, I, again, I'll say it one more time. I actually do think Hollander for the most part is pretty good with interviews. Just don't tell that to angry Mariners fan on Twitter. That guy, I mean, his, his, his all out war that he's taken on with Justin Hollander, which is a one way street for the most part, because again, it's not like Hollander's responding to him for the most part. is absurd. Not for the most part. 00:10:02 Speaker 3: He doesn't respond to him at all. 00:10:03 Speaker 1: Well, except for the one very notable press conference setting. 00:10:08 Speaker 2: Right, where he called out Twitter trolls about the training staff. That was kind of wild. 00:10:12 Speaker 1: Faceless Twitter trolls, which I would say includes that account. 00:10:16 Speaker 2: That angry Baroness fan account. Yeah, I mean, again, every time he gets a chance to try to fire off shots at Justin Hollander, he does. Which is, I think, hilarious, because I think that has to be the only person on planet Earth that legitimately has the arch rival of Justin Hollander, in the sense of... Hollander is the GM of the team and there's somebody above him making final decisions. So usually people's gripes go to Jerry, but no, there's somebody in this fan base that like goes out of their way to talk about their disdain for Justin Hollander, who again, for the most part is a pretty well, like well-spoken, like relatable dude or as relatable for a GM as you can be. Like it's, I don't know. It's, it's crazy. It's a crazy war. Anyway, what was the other thing? The last thing I would say for, takeaways that I had from the press conferences is just how in the world this whole Dan thing even went down two years ago. And I know we've hammered that home a million times in terms of how the hell he got hired, but just hearing Jerry say in his press conference, how there are players that have come through the system and noted to him, how there were things that they learned constantly during their time in player development and their time as a prospect that evaporated when they got to the big leagues. I mean, It was one of many shots that Jerry essentially took at Dan during his presser, which, by the way, I said this on social media here on Tuesday. I'll say it here again on the pod. If there's one person that despised watching Dan manage baseball games more than the entirety of the Mariners fan base, that was Jerry DiPoto. And he made that about as clear as you can possibly make it during his press conference without actually using the name Dan Wilson at all. Because everything he called out, for the most part, reflects back on the manager. And the fact that he notes that There were players coming to him saying there were things they learned in player development that evaporated in the big leagues. I mean, that's a Dan Wilson thing. That's a big league coaching staff thing. And I, again, am wondering, talking to this front office, like I'm directing this to the front office, how could you have possibly made this hire? Not only without interviewing anybody else, but the fact you were so misaligned. How did you not recognize just how misaligned you were before making this hire? I mean, if it's this, if it's this drastic, how did you never pick up on this? 00:12:37 Speaker 3: Because they didn't actually talk to anyone else. That's why. 00:12:39 Speaker 1: As soon as you talk to someone else and you ask him the questions you thought, I guess you asked Dan Wilson, which by the way, the 25 year interview thing, like that's never going to be a thing ever again. 00:12:52 Speaker 3: No, like that. 00:12:54 Speaker 1: If you're going to interview someone for a job, I don't care how long they've worked for you. They also have to do the job interview. Also, Dan was a minor league rover. That is nowhere near the same thing as being a big league manager. They drastically overestimated what he would bring to the coaching staff. Drastically overestimated it. 00:13:17 Speaker 2: I know they didn't interview other people. You still had to talk to Dan Wilson about... him managing the team. And at some point I would have to assume when they talk to him that they, they asked him about what his style would be and what his principles would be and how in no point at no point, did you ever pick up as a front office group that there was complete misalignment to the point where it's just untenable and they still let this go on. 00:13:42 Speaker 3: A couple of things on this. 00:13:44 Speaker 1: Number one, you're right. But Jerry in that moment also said that he was open to new ideas when they hired him. 00:13:54 Speaker 4: Okay. 00:13:54 Speaker 3: Remember that? It was in the press conference. 00:13:58 Speaker 2: There's a difference between new ideas and different stratospheres. These are two people that don't even think in the same wavelength, even close to the same wavelength in terms of baseball. 00:14:08 Speaker 1: Well, dog, I think Jerry in that moment might've thought that that's what he needed. And then he saw actually play out on the field and he's like, Oh, nevermind. Well, Which comes back to this is on Jerry. This is why you need to interview other people. So you get different perspectives on this and you understand what you're getting yourself into when you make the decision. I, again, just. 00:14:29 Speaker 2: Don't understand how for somebody that had not only been a GM at that point for about nine years in Jerry DePoto, but that's nine years for the Mariners. He'd been in three separate organizations as a GM. He's worked in baseball ops forever. How in the world, with all the information and all the time on task that he has, did he think, let's do that? It's completely absurd. And we've said this before. It almost looks like it was a way for him to try to save his own job by to go to ownership and say, hey, you know what would be awesome for a group of owners that loves nothing more than to just absolutely milk every ounce of the team hall of fame that they can get out of it? Let's just hire Dan Wilson to manage. 00:15:15 Speaker 1: As Jerry told you, dog, that process that you just described out that doesn't make any sense should have gotten him fired. Yeah. 00:15:22 Speaker 2: Yes. 00:15:23 Speaker 1: That essentially tells you all you need to know, where Jerry acknowledges that was, as you said, didn't make any sense, ended up being as bad as you could possibly think it was, and then. 00:15:32 Speaker 3: Ends up getting you fired. 00:15:36 Speaker 2: I will say, after talking about this today in a couple of the posts that we threw out there on social media on Tuesday— We did start to get a lot of comments from people after reacting to the way Jerry talked about Dan and the pressers saying, oh, well, it's clear that Dan was an ownership hire. I mean, I guess there's still the possibility of it. I certainly wouldn't rule it out. 00:15:58 Speaker 3: I don't think so. 00:16:00 Speaker 1: I mean, more people have told us that it was Jerry than not. And the public sentiment from people that would know is that it was Jerry's hiring. And Jerry and the press conference said it was his decision. 00:16:16 Speaker 2: And most of the intel we've gotten is that that was a total Jerry call. So I'm not saying definitively that this was an ownership call. I think more likely than not, it was Jerry's call. But as we've talked about in the past, is it possible that's what Jerry has to say to cover for his bosses? Possible. 00:16:35 Speaker 3: It is possible. I would still say it's unlikely. 00:16:38 Speaker 2: Probably, yes. It most likely was Jerry's call. And that call was a horrific one. 00:16:45 Speaker 4: Yes. 00:16:46 Speaker 1: A lot of bad process that went into that, which is why they're essentially repeating none of that into this next managerial search. Tells you all you need to know. Changing everything. Right. 00:16:57 Speaker 2: But I would say that's the remainder of things that I still had on my mind for the presser. We talked about John Stanton on Monday and the absurd quotes that he put out, which were just beyond horrendous. But again, if you want to hear that, that's on Monday's episode. 00:17:09 Speaker 1: Before we dive into these managerial candidates, Lyle, let's pause here for an ad. You know the pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat? The sweater that goes with everything, the perfect pair of pants, or the t-shirt that you always go for first. Those are the pieces that makes getting dressed easy, and that's what Quince does best. Quince focuses on high-quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials, like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and merino wool. The styles are timeless and designed to become versatile pieces that you reach for day-to-day. Quince sent me a couple of their button-up everyday polos. I've found it very useful to scale up a very casual outfit. 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We'll give you some bullet points, some pros and cons on all these guys and what we would think in our early observations of them as Mariners manager. These are not confirmed guys the Mariners are interviewing. This is just what has been out there and what has been reported. So let's start with the most popular name and Tori Lovello. He's been the Diamondbacks manager for 10 seasons. What would you think about some pros and cons of Tori Lovello as Mariners manager? 00:19:09 Speaker 2: I would say this name is the most popular in terms of what people have started to pick up on as the most likely. Adam wrote in his article that, this does have a decent likelihood to happen if Lovello ends up leaving Arizona. And Lovello and Jerry have some ties. They were both in Boston together shortly in the mid-2010s. Pros of Torrey Lovello? Well, number one, he has been a big league manager before, and he has been in the same spot for about the last 10 years. So he's proven that he can hold down a big league job. And if the Mariners really want prior big league managerial experience to play into this decision... Well, Torrey Lovello has it. 00:19:49 Speaker 1: Here's one thing I'll note for all of these candidates. It's really, really hard to look at the wins and losses of these guys because there is if these guys have a long track record. Well, they're available for a reason. that they usually have not won enough. I feel like Don Mattingly is really the only one who's won in a lot of play or at least one in my memory consistently as a manager and yet has still gotten himself fired. I feel like that's about it, right? Because all these other guys, like if you look at Tori Lavello or a couple of the other options, like their record's like about 500. So that's not really something you can look into. You look at, I think, the experience, the prior relationships, and how he's handled certain situations. The big question I think with Tory Lovello is managing the clubhouse. I think for the most part, he's fine. The situation with Cattell Marte this year was a weird one. I frankly don't have enough information on that incident to know if Tory Lovello handled that one correctly or not. I will also say that Tory Lovello, if you were to be the Mariners manager, would not have to deal with Cattell Marte or anyone close to Cattell Marte. As we've heard, he's pretty difficult. So that might not actually be that relevant to this whole situation. 00:21:07 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:21:10 Speaker 2: You can have your own take on how Lovello handled Cattell Marte. I just don't know if there's a concrete take out there to have on how Lovello specifically handled it. I mean, he certainly wasn't happy about it. I think he made that clear. Why would he be? I know that he had a lot of closed door meetings with the other leaders of his team who voiced their frustrations about the whole thing. And I don't think those said leaders of the team were actually specified by name. But I would have to assume Nolan Arenado was one of those guys. I'd probably assume Corbin Carroll was one of those guys, despite being on the younger side. Lovello took some real steps and took some course of action within his own clubhouse when the Cattell Marte situation was going down. But what your opinion on it is, is probably your opinion to have. I don't think there's a concrete one out there. Because Cattell Marte is a really difficult player, as he's proven, to deal with. I mean, this is a man who essentially just decided to stop showing up one day for a period of time and was seen at the casino gambling in the middle of Diamondbacks games. So how do you handle that if you're any manager? 00:22:16 Speaker 1: When we're talking about trading for Cattell in the offseason, a notable baseball person told us directly he would advise every team not to trade for Cattell Marte. 00:22:25 Speaker 3: Not worth it. 00:22:26 Speaker 4: Right. 00:22:27 Speaker 2: And things like this are why, right? Like, I think Lovello talked about he felt a sense of betrayal from his star player. I think he noted how he felt like Cattell was letting the team down. I don't think there was absolutely zero accountability held, which is going to be something that's going to be very important for Lovello to prove he can do if he's going to take this job. And I would bet you, man, one of the questions that Jerry and Justin plan to ask Torrey Lovello if and when they bring him in for an interview is, How do you feel like you handled the Quetel Marte situation? How would you handle situations like that going forward? If you could improve on something in terms of the way you handled that situation, what would you do differently the next time? I am sure the Quetel Marte situation is going to come up in his interview because it's imperative that the next manager has a good feel on how to handle clubhouse drama. And that's about as lethal a clubhouse drama as you can cook up. I mean, for Tori Lovello, the Cal Randy thing in the WBC feels like a chat over tea if I had to guess for him compared to having your star player leave to go gamble at the casino in the middle of baseball games during the regular season. 00:23:43 Speaker 3: There's one notable con. 00:23:45 Speaker 1: We have no idea if he's actually available for the Mariners to hire or not. 00:23:49 Speaker 3: Like his contract is up. 00:23:51 Speaker 1: But as we've said, if the Diamondbacks offered him more year, like a multi-year deal, he probably stays. And the Mariners don't get a chance. Because it's not like the Mariners are going to try and overpay for Torrey Lovello. They don't really do that when it comes to any of their coaches. So it'd be kind of hard to get Lovello away from the Diamondbacks if they want to bring him back for another couple of years. But I would also understand why the Diamondbacks might not want to bring him back because he hasn't won enough. He won one pennant when they won 84 games in a season and otherwise has been about a 500 manager. 00:24:24 Speaker 4: So.... 00:24:26 Speaker 3: I would understand if they'd want to move on from that. 00:24:29 Speaker 1: And especially with the Cattell thing this year, maybe they just want a new voice. 00:24:34 Speaker 3: So we'll see on that. 00:24:37 Speaker 1: If we're going off the checklist of what Jerry and Justin talked about they wanted for a manager, they said experience. Well, he's got plenty of experience, 10 years as a manager. Experience as a manager. And he's 61 years old. I feel like that is roughly what they're looking for when it comes to like a resume, maybe a bit on the older side, but when it comes to resume, he fits it. 00:25:06 Speaker 2: You know how a lot of points during the season, I was using the carpenter meter to judge bullpen decisions. And we talked about it on the show a lot. If you wanted to change the carpenter meter to the tough one tonight meter in terms of evaluating how a manager speaks publicly and conveys the message of his team, I would not worry about that regarding Tory Lovello. He is pretty good with the media. He is supposed to be, I know everybody talks about how Dan is a really nice dude. Lovello is a nice dude, but still while holding accountability within his team and a nice dude while also conveying thoughtful answers to the fans and to the media about the identity of his team and the process of his team. He usually gives pretty well thought out answers when talking on a daily basis. So on the tough one tonight meter, I wouldn't worry about Torrey Lovello giving bad answers. So if you're out there and you're somebody that worries that we're going to have a poorly spoken manager again, that would not be the case with Lovello. 00:26:02 Speaker 3: No, no. 00:26:03 Speaker 1: And he managed quite a while in the minor leagues too. So there is no shortage of experience in that seat. 00:26:10 Speaker 2: Now I will say, if you want one other con... It's hard to judge this perfectly. I have seen some Diamondbacks fans talk about they didn't always love the way he managed games around the margins. Now, it's hard to get a perfect read on that because as people who aren't watching every managerial move in an Arizona Diamondbacks game 162 times a year, you can't have a perfect feel. But I would respond with this. Number one, the bar is on the floor. for the next Mariners manager. Is Lovello going to be perfect? No, no manager will be perfect. There's no way whatever he does in terms of his pinch hitting and his bullpen decisions could possibly even hold a candle to what we watched the last two years. It's not possible. 00:26:54 Speaker 1: Well, it'll seem great right away, initially. It'll seem like really, really, really good. 00:27:01 Speaker 4: Right. 00:27:02 Speaker 2: And the other point with that that I would say is, There's not a perfect way to measure these metrics either, but there have been some data-driven baseball accounts this year that have tried to grade manager success rate based on their in-game decisions. And if you want to weigh that somewhat heavily or at all, the charts that came out this year actually graded Lovello pretty well on those margins. They graded him top 10 in baseball in terms of in-game decisions and manager success rate with his decisions. So if you put any weight into that, In that regard, he was actually favored. 00:27:37 Speaker 3: Where was Dan? 00:27:40 Speaker 2: Oh, far down. Very far down on the list. 00:27:46 Speaker 3: How about where our next candidate was? Steven Vogt. Where did he rank? 00:27:51 Speaker 2: He was pretty high on this list, too. He ranked well. Steven Vogt, people know this because he's been in the Mariners system. He spent a year as the bullpen coach here in 2023. He has Washington ties. But Steven Vogt's a pretty New Age-driven manager. I mean, this is a guy who is not afraid to be aggressive in an analytical way. The Guardians, who are a really thoughtful, sharp, data-driven, intelligent organization... They do things that are aggressive and they do things that try to give them an edge on the margins to win games. And what I mean by that is Stephen Vogt will do things at times like use openers. He'll do things like make aggressive pinch hit decisions early in games if he sees a chance to take a swing in a game and get the right matchup in the fourth inning if he thinks that they really have a chance to expose a matchup and capitalize on a run scoring opportunity. He will do that. He is pretty... forward thinking in terms of his lineups. He doesn't run the same lineup out there every day. He plays the matchups. So this is a guy that certainly has a feel for the modern game of baseball. And I will say, while Torrey Lovello might be the popular pick right now online because it's being reported that he could be the favorite, I think the popular pick among the popular vote of Mariners fans, if you were to poll people on this, is going to be Steven Vogt. And you can understand why. 00:29:16 Speaker 1: This would be the number one option if he was comfortably available, I think. The biggest con, and it is the biggest con amongst all these candidates, is that Steven Vogt is under contract for 2027 and the Mariners would have to trade for him unless for some reason Cleveland would release him from his contract. 00:29:36 Speaker 3: That's it. 00:29:38 Speaker 2: Well, or by releasing him from his contract, that means that the Mariners probably paid Cleveland to let him out of his contract. 00:29:45 Speaker 3: Correct, which they're not doing. There's no way. 00:29:49 Speaker 2: What, the Mariners aren't going to spend money to try and win baseball games? Like they don't want to give themselves the edge and do every necessary thing to win? Huh, that's weird. 00:29:58 Speaker 1: Steven Vogt is forced to do a lot of these things because he runs out a lineup which has the least amount of investment of any team in Major League Baseball. The Guardians ranked 30th in baseball and payroll again this season. He's got his one aircraft carrier in the middle of his lineup in Jose Ramirez. But then in a year like this year where he has Steven Kwan not hitting quite as well, he's got to manufacture his lineup a little bit. And it's going to be a lot different for him if he were to come to the Mariners And he would have some significantly more established stalwarts with a stronger farm system and better young talent coming in. And oh, by the way, he wouldn't even have to use an opener as Mariners manager because he would have way too many starting pitchers to deal with. How you could use that to reflect on what he would do as Mariners manager is that he could be a little bit more aggressive with his bullpen decisions and be a little more confident in his bullpen decisions. 00:30:55 Speaker 3: And fans. 00:30:57 Speaker 1: would be more confident in him knowing what he's doing as a manager when he's making these decisions, whereas a process down of how he's going to make stuff like this work. 00:31:08 Speaker 2: Though I will say, I think the Guardians had a much better bullpen than the Mariners did this year. 00:31:14 Speaker 1: Well, that's for Jerry DiPoto to answer, Lyle. 00:31:19 Speaker 2: It is, yes. 00:31:20 Speaker 1: That's accountability right there. Oh, our bullpen wasn't talented enough. 00:31:23 Speaker 3: Time to make it better. Absolutely. 00:31:25 Speaker 2: Absolutely. So if you're Steven Vogt, there is absolute reasons for why he would look at the Mariners' job and say this is a more attractive job to me than Cleveland and would potentially have incentive to leave. Whether Cleveland lets him out of the contract is a different story, and we'll have to see how that plays out as the weeks go on. But if you're Steven Vogt and you've made things work with an $ 80 million payroll in Cleveland and have won back-to-back AL Manager of the Year awards and have put your team in the playoffs each of the last two years. 00:31:56 Speaker 3: And each of the last three years. 00:31:59 Speaker 2: Oh, right. Three years. 00:32:00 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:32:00 Speaker 2: Yeah. Each of his three years as a manager, they've been in the playoffs. 00:32:03 Speaker 1: Three division titles, which is more division titles than the Mariners have. 00:32:08 Speaker 2: Well, ever. No, not quite ever, but close. 00:32:14 Speaker 3: If he sees it's as many. 00:32:18 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:32:18 Speaker 2: What? 00:32:19 Speaker 3: No, they have four. Sorry. 00:32:20 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:32:20 Speaker 3: It's one off. 00:32:21 Speaker 6: Right. 00:32:22 Speaker 2: So if you're Steven Vogt, there's absolutely reasons where he'd look at the Mariners and say, this is a more attractive job than Cleveland, and I would like to leave to go take that job because he'll have more resources. Look, the Mariners don't spend the money they should be spending. We've all been clear about that. But they're spending about $ 90 million more a year on their payroll than Cleveland is. Maybe it's more like $ 80 million. But regardless, they spend... about double the money Cleveland does on their payroll. If you're Steven Vogt and you're trying to truly win a championship rather than just win a division in a division that's usually pretty weak in the AL Central, there is absolutely reasons where he'd look at this job and say, I would love to go back to Seattle. And he still lives in Washington in the off season. 00:33:03 Speaker 1: Yep. 00:33:04 Speaker 3: Full time. 00:33:05 Speaker 1: So I'd be a pretty good pitch to him. The contract is the big thing that will hang this up and probably limit whether or not the Mariners could hire him. Adam Jude called this one the most unlikely of all of them. 00:33:20 Speaker 2: There is a lot of hurdles you'd have to jump. Even if it's an attractive job to Steven Vogt, there's a lot of hurdles that the Mariners themselves would have to jump. I will say, though, too, last note before we wrap up on Steven Vogt, Cleveland puts out some superstar coaching staff. They really do. For a team that doesn't always invest in their players, my God, do they get the right coaches into that building to get the best out of their players. You want to look at an example. The staff the Guardians had last year in 2025 featured this. Steven Vogt was the manager. Craig Albernaz was second in charge, who is now the Orioles manager. And then you had Kai Correa, our guy, who was... a infield coach and a bench coach and was on the staff. I think that year he got a title promotion to director of defense for the Guardians. And then you still have Carl Willis on the pitching side, who's a legend in the game. I mean, that's a Cleveland staff that is absolutely loaded. There's three potential managers on that staff. So whether that's Steven Vogt picking out all those guys or it's Chris Antonetti in the front office, Cleveland knows how to pick a coaching staff, man. They are really good at it. And their coaching staff, again, this year was also really good with some former Mariners hands on the staff and Andy McKay and Tony Arnerich. Cleveland knows how to put a staff together. 00:34:43 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:34:45 Speaker 1: Let's go to the next candidate. Rocco Baldelli, former Twins manager. What are some pros and cons? 00:34:53 Speaker 2: Rocco Baldelli's won a manager of the year. That's always a pro. Doesn't always tell you the full story, but he's won one. He also was the Twins manager for six years. And he was the twins manager when they put together arguably the greatest offense of all time. And that 2019 twins team that just hit home runs at the most absurd rate you could ever draw up. That was Rocco's team. 00:35:16 Speaker 4: Yep. 00:35:16 Speaker 2: So if you want a quick intro to Rocco Baldelli, he's a manager that's managed a team that hit a whole lot of home runs and is certainly analytically driven. 00:35:28 Speaker 1: He, his resume is kind of incomplete to me. Because here's how he ended up getting fired. Six seasons with the Twins. Made the playoffs in 19. I think they missed in 20, made in 21, missed in 22, and made in 23. 00:35:48 Speaker 3: If I have that right. Let me pull up reference so I have that correctly. 00:35:53 Speaker 2: Well, 23 was the year they finally won a playoff series for the first time in 20 years. And that was Rocco that managed that team. 00:35:59 Speaker 3: Correct. 00:36:00 Speaker 1: So yeah, 2019, sorry, they made it in 2019. They made it in 20. They missed in 21 and 22. They made it in 23 where they won the AL Central with 87 wins. 00:36:13 Speaker 3: Really doesn't take a whole lot to win that division ever. 00:36:17 Speaker 1: But right after he won that playoff series in 2023 and an 87 win roster with Buxton and Buxton and Polanco and think nelson cruz was still on that team they were they're still pretty good. 00:36:31 Speaker 2: Oh carlos correa was on that team. 00:36:33 Speaker 1: Carlos correa yeah they slashed their payroll by 30 million dollars in that offseason the same offseason the mariners had the infamous 15 million dollar budget to spend yeah oh no wait no that was the season after no yeah no well regardless the mariners still cut a ton of payroll that offseason The twins never reinvested that back into the roster. So Rocco's essentially giving away his good players. His team's getting worse. And they're not actively acquiring guys either. I remember that. They were just kind of sitting pat with a mediocre to bad team, which eventually they started trading pieces away in 2025 and they fired Rocco Baldelli right after that. Kind of gives incomplete vibes. And then he got scooped up by the Dodgers right away and he's working in their organization somewhere. 00:37:25 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a special assistant to Andrew Friedman. So he is in the Dodgers front office. 00:37:28 Speaker 3: So he's in the front office. 00:37:30 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:37:30 Speaker 2: Dodgers have a lot of... Shocker. Dodgers have a lot of smart people working in their front office. Rocco Baldelli's in the front office. Raul Abanez is in the front office with a pretty good role. We might get to him later. Chris Archer's in the front office, who obviously had a very good playing career as a pitcher and was in an analytically driven org with the Rays. Dodgers employ a lot of good people. 00:37:51 Speaker 4: I know. 00:37:52 Speaker 2: Shocking. Speaking of the Rays... Rocco Baldelli spent a lot of time with the Rays. So he is certainly a guy that understands new age baseball. He is certainly a guy that has a modern feel on the game of baseball, which should align with the front office. And I would also say he balances that out with making sure he prioritizes communication. One of the things that Rocco Baldelli did when he first got hired as a twins manager ahead of the 2019 season was he made it a point to go visit a bunch of his star players and veterans and that offseason in their own homes, in their own hometowns, to start to build trust and put relationships on a good note right off the bat, before spring training even started that year. Rocco didn't have to do that, but that was something he clearly thought was necessary and beneficial for him to do, and he went and did it. Similar to what Scott Service did that offseason ahead of 2024, when he met with all his players in the offseason, went to all their hometowns, traveled around, to make sure he was conveying the message of the team in a good way to make sure everybody was on the same page. Because again, it was that offseason where the Mariners had a lot of ridiculous narratives spinning around about their payroll and about how committed they really were to winning. That wasn't the $ 15 million offseason. That was the offseason after. So the Mariners had multiple offseasons in a row where ownership made themselves a huge story for terrible reasons. But service did something similar to Rocco Valdelli in that offseason. He wanted to make sure him and his players were all on the same page. And he did that. So if communication is something you really hope to see in the next manager, it seems like that is something that's important to Rocco Baldelli. 00:39:31 Speaker 3: I'd love to see that. 00:39:33 Speaker 1: And given the fact that he already has interest in being a manager again by a lot of the reports just a year after he's been fired, I'd say he's a pretty good sign that he might get a second chance. 00:39:46 Speaker 3: So we'll see. 00:39:49 Speaker 1: how the process plays out and what the league thinks of him, but. 00:39:55 Speaker 3: The roots seem to be pretty good. 00:39:58 Speaker 2: Isn't it funny, by the way, before we keep going, to try to evaluate these managers? When we're prepping notes for this episode, trying to evaluate a manager is so different than trying to evaluate a player. Because when we sit on here and talk about a player, we have objective facts to use with data that's almost endless, that you can use from so many different timestamps. to highlight why a player's played well or hasn't played well on offense, on defense, on the base pads, etc. We're doing all these notes on these managers, and some of it's a little subjective. It's like, well, he managed here and he did this, but you also can't really use win-loss records to properly evaluate managers. So doing this whole. 00:40:44 Speaker 2: Exercise to get ready for this episode is a little out of left field because there's a lot of things that are up in the air trying to evaluate managers. 00:40:51 Speaker 1: You know the best way to prep for this episode is if we like interviewed all these guys before we did this episode like that's it the best thing a manager can do it's you're the boss of a company essentially you're you're facilitating and managing personalities and i only think the best way i think the best way to handle that is talking to the person. We can read words on a piece online, but that only says so much. 00:41:19 Speaker 4: Right. 00:41:19 Speaker 1: It's like, so when Rocco Baldelli's going to his twins' players, like, what are they talking about? Like, how much impact does that have? 00:41:28 Speaker 2: We don't know. There's no empirical data to point to that. So for... Two people doing a podcast who are going through an exercise that they've never done before in terms of a new managerial search because, you know, we didn't get the opportunity to do that in 2024. This is new for us. And trying to evaluate managers is not a perfect science. You have to go off a lot of things that are up in the air. TJ's right. The best way to evaluate these guys is probably if we had to sit down and interview these guys and got to have our own conversations with them. And most of these guys we haven't gotten to do that with. Not none, because I will say there is one person on this list who we have gotten to have some extensive combos with, who we have picked up on some things from, but not every single guy. 00:42:13 Speaker 1: The next name I want to highlight is the one closest to the Mariners family, and that's Chris Negron. He's currently the bench coach for the Pirates. He was a coach in the Mariners system from 2022 to 2025. I'm just going to go out and say it. Chris Negron might have every green flag possible as Seattle Mariners manager based on his process, how he communicates with players, and all other sorts of little things, attention to detail, emphasis on defense, all this kind of stuff. The fact that he was in the Mariners organization from 2022 to 2025 is a con that will just be his story for me. 00:42:58 Speaker 2: He's very close to the vest. I called this a retread. When I saw Negron's name out there, I said, look, there's a reason he got hired away to be the Pirates bench coach. There's a reason he's an up-and-coming coach in the game. There's a reason that at a young age, he's getting promotions. But for a front office that's preaching, they need new voices and outside help from people that are not in your organization. This doesn't feel like it would be a full commitment to that. And it might be unfair to Christopher Negron, to be totally fair. It's not really a fault of his own. This is where he got hired to be a coach, and he was good enough at his job that he got to stick around for a long time. By the way, not just as a big league coach, because he was a big league coach from 22 through 25, but he also managed the Rainiers back in 2021. And when he managed the Rainiers, he managed Kelnick. He managed Logan Gilbert. He managed Cal. He managed a lot of this core. So he knows these guys. And by no fault of his own, he's been good enough at his job where he's stayed in the big leagues for a while and now has gotten a promotion to the Pirates. Unfortunately, I just don't think this can be the guy for the Mariners because it just feels like it's too much of a retread. He coached under Scott. He coached under Dan. He knows all these players very, very well. I'm sure he's got some principles that align to the old guard. of both Dan and Scott, and I think it's too much rehashing and not enough of a new voice. 00:44:29 Speaker 1: By the way, didn't mention this with Tori Lovello, so we'll loop him in here with Chris Negron. 00:44:35 Speaker 3: Both of them break my rule. 00:44:38 Speaker 1: Rule number two of TJ's new Mariners offseason rules. The Mariners cannot hire a manager who's played a single game for them. Chris Negron played 18 games for the Mariners in 2018. And then he turned around and he played 10 games for the Mariners in 2019. On top of the fact, he spent time coaching in the Mariners system. That makes him, Lyle, ineligible to be the manager of the Seattle Mariners. 00:45:10 Speaker 3: Torrey Lavelle, you might ask? Well, funny you mention him. 00:45:14 Speaker 1: Torrey appeared in 36 games for the Mariners in 1994. 00:45:20 Speaker 3: So I'm sorry to him. 00:45:22 Speaker 1: He's also ineligible to be manager of the Seattle Mariners because I can't break rules. 00:45:30 Speaker 2: You make some very good points with Christopher Negron. In the last 10 years, he has played games for the Mariners. And as we just talked about, he coached for the Mariners for five plus years. He was in the organization a long time. And I think those rules that you have meet up with what Christopher Negron's resume says. And I think for you to have that red flag and to say that can't be the guy is totally valid. Using 36 games of Torrey Lovello in 1994 as a reason he can't be the Mariners manager, I'm going to sit here and tell you to fuck off. 00:46:03 Speaker 1: I hate to do this to you, Lyle. Who was a teammate of Torrey Lovello's in 1994? 00:46:10 Speaker 2: That doesn't mean those two align in baseball thought. In fact, they don't align in baseball thought. 00:46:15 Speaker 3: Shared a clubhouse. 00:46:19 Speaker 2: 32 years ago. Like you cannot get hung up. You can't get hung up on 32 games from 1994 or 36 games from 1994. You're talking about 32 years ago. I absolutely can. 00:46:30 Speaker 1: No, no. 00:46:30 Speaker 4: Yes, I can. 00:46:37 Speaker 2: Is there a single photo of Tory Lovello inside a T-Mobile park? There are photos of Chris Negron inside T-Mobile park. Cause he's been in some of these big team photos when they won the AL West, when they won in Toronto and the wild card series, when Cal broke the drought Negron's in some of these photos that are around the ballpark. Are you going to find Tory Lovello photos as a Mariner in the ballpark? 00:46:59 Speaker 1: I am staring at a Tory Lovello signed photo. 00:47:03 Speaker 3: Of him in a Mariner's uniform on eBay. 00:47:06 Speaker 4: Okay. 00:47:07 Speaker 2: Oh, good. A Tori Lavella baseball card on eBay is why he can't be a Mariners manager in 2027. 00:47:13 Speaker 1: No. 00:47:14 Speaker 3: My rules were absolute. 00:47:15 Speaker 2: Well, they need to be unabsolute because this is stupid. 00:47:18 Speaker 4: Nope. 00:47:19 Speaker 2: This is stupid. 00:47:20 Speaker 4: Nope. 00:47:20 Speaker 3: They're not stupid. 00:47:21 Speaker 2: This is stupid. 00:47:22 Speaker 4: Nope. 00:47:23 Speaker 2: I don't care that he played 36 games in 1994 for the Mariners. 00:47:27 Speaker 3: Well, I do. 00:47:29 Speaker 2: Again, I think you're getting caught up in extremes here. 00:47:33 Speaker 3: What is the point? Explain to me this. 00:47:36 Speaker 1: The Mariners just said they need to have standards. They need to draw a line in the sand and say, we cannot go over this standard. 00:47:44 Speaker 3: Why should I be any different? 00:47:46 Speaker 2: Okay, so Steven Vogt never played a game with the Mariners, but because he coached here, then he also can't be the manager. Great. 00:47:54 Speaker 3: Let's hire Kai. 00:47:57 Speaker 2: Well, we'll get to our guy here in a minute, but congratulations. 46 minutes into this podcast, after going through multiple candidates, you've now crossed off Lovello, you've crossed off Steven Vogt, you've crossed off Christopher Negron, and I'm sure you're about to cross off Raul Abanez when we eventually get to him. So you've now wielded this whole field down to two people. 00:48:18 Speaker 1: I'm just holding the Mariners to what they said outside the org. 00:48:22 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to say this again. 36 games for the Mariners in 1994 on an awful team. Does not throw his resume out the window. Does not throw his resume out the window. 00:48:36 Speaker 3: With Dan Wilson as his catcher. 00:48:39 Speaker 2: Torrey Lovello spent 10 years under Diamondbacks front office people who are also analytically driven. He's worked for Mike Hazen. He worked for Boston in the mid-2010s. Again, he doesn't have ties with Dan Wilson. He has more ties to Jerry DiPoto than he has to Dan Wilson. Him and Jerry worked together in Boston in the mid-2010s for a few months. More than playing like 36 games with Dan in 1994 with a horseshit team that eventually went on strike because baseball stopped that year. 00:49:10 Speaker 3: I think you're going to need to get over yourself. 00:49:13 Speaker 2: If you're listening to this, Leave us a comment and please tell me that TJ is being stupid in the comments because this is stupid. 00:49:21 Speaker 3: This is not a bit. 00:49:22 Speaker 1: I'm not going to get on here and be called a hypocrite. 00:49:26 Speaker 2: I'm not. 00:49:27 Speaker 3: I can see it happening. 00:49:29 Speaker 2: Okay, good. 00:49:30 Speaker 1: I put out that clip less than two months ago where I said, these are three things the Mariners are not allowed. 00:49:37 Speaker 3: To do this offseason. 00:49:38 Speaker 1: I can't turn around and let them hire someone who played for them. 00:49:43 Speaker 2: Well, if Tori Lovello becomes the Mariners manager, boy, do I hope we get to have him on the podcast. And the first thing that's going to be introduced is my friend here and co-host thinks that you actually can't and don't deserve to be the manager of the Seattle Mariners. TJ, would you like to explain? And you'll be like, yes, I said there can't be former Mariner players that take this job. And you did play 30 games here 32 years ago. So are you lining up? are you lining up to send in your resume at Chick-fil-A or what? 00:50:14 Speaker 1: Look, man, we outlined a scenario on that, on that mailbag question that we answered where you said like, what if they played like 15 games? And I said, no, Donovan Solano is not allowed to be the manager of the Seattle Mariners. 00:50:31 Speaker 2: Okay. So I just want, I just want you to know, I'll explain it to Tori. Okay, so I want you to know, and I'm saying this on the record for everybody listening, if you're going to stand 10 toes down on this and Tori Lovello becomes the manager, I really hope we have him on the pod one day. And by the way, he's supposed to be a super nice guy and really good with interviews. I hope we have him on. And boy, I hope he has a sense of humor because you are going to explain to him now that you think he can't be the manager of this team. 00:50:59 Speaker 3: Yep, I'm ready. 00:51:01 Speaker 2: Okay, good. 00:51:02 Speaker 1: Well, when he gets fired, if Tori is a man of principle and he also has standards that he sets for himself, he'll probably respect me for it. 00:51:11 Speaker 3: Like TJ, you stood on business. 00:51:16 Speaker 2: I am looking forward to that day. I got to tell you. And now, and now our fans are too, because they're going to clip this. They're going to remember this part of this episode and say, wow, I can't wait to have this circle back on with actual big league manager. It'll be very part of my take. I'll say that. One of the first things you ask a marquee guest is why you think you actually shouldn't have your job. 00:51:42 Speaker 4: Yep. 00:51:43 Speaker 3: Exactly. 00:51:44 Speaker 2: Well, I'm looking forward to the day, I must say. Okay. 00:51:48 Speaker 1: Let's talk about someone who did not play for the Seattle Mariners, and that is Kai Correa. We've been banging the drum for Kai Correa all summer long. We've gotten to actually talk with him. talk about how he views the game of baseball. He's got an incredibly fun story to get to where he is right now. And this is a guy who might have the most quote-unquote upside, however you're going to measure that, as a potential manager for the Mariners next year and is in Adam Jude's reporting, which we'll take credit for. 00:52:21 Speaker 4: Thank you. 00:52:22 Speaker 3: Thank you, Adam. 00:52:23 Speaker 2: Our guy, dude. Our guy, Kai. Hashtag fly high for Kai. You know that if you've been listening the last couple weeks that we are very, very high on this guy, and for good reason. I think we talked about him well before Adam put out his article, and we threw him out there as a guy that we'd love to see the Mariners interview because he is sharp as hell. He is incredibly detail-oriented. But I didn't know if the Mariners were actually going to be serious about interviewing a bench coach for the Mets or not. And then Adam writes up five guys, and one of them is Kai Correa. And I was like, oh... Maybe all of a sudden this has got validity. All of a sudden, we're in the never wrong, just early bucket. All of a sudden, this has a shot. So I'm getting kind of excited. I don't know if Kyle will get the job or not, but the fact he's in their bucket, I think is really exciting. 00:53:13 Speaker 1: There's a very good chance they'll want more experience than what he has. He's been all over the place, but he hasn't managed yet. 00:53:22 Speaker 2: Hasn't managed. 00:53:24 Speaker 1: His primary focus as a professional baseball coach has been either being a bench coach or being an infield coach. 00:53:31 Speaker 3: That's his specialty. 00:53:33 Speaker 1: I will say the Mariners are in need of a new infield coach this year now that Perry Hill is not there. And if you want the complete opposite of Perry Hill when it comes to, frankly, age, Kai is it. 00:53:47 Speaker 2: Well, let me say this. If the Mariners want Kai Correa to be their infield coach... He ain't coming here because I can almost guarantee the Mets are paying him a hell of a lot better to be their bench coach than the Mariners are because the Mets pay people. The Mariners don't. So if you want Kai Correa in Seattle, he's going to need to be the manager. 00:54:06 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, he might be making close to what the Mariners hope to pay their next manager. 00:54:14 Speaker 2: Yeah, big time. 00:54:15 Speaker 1: It was reported that Dan made only barely over a million dollars. 00:54:18 Speaker 4: Right. 00:54:19 Speaker 2: And Jordan Schusterman, who was on the show last week, was also telling us, who knows Kai, that him and Andy Green have a really good relationship. So if you were going to try to poach Kai Correa away from Queens, you're probably going to have to get him to be a manager. So this would be the Mariners' chance. Now, in terms of his story, I really do think this is fascinating. So I'll flesh it out for people. First off, I'll note that both his dad and his grandfather are pretty legendary high school coaches in Hawaii. So Kai comes from a family of coaches. How his journey goes is like this. First off, he has specific Northwest roots. Kai played at University of Puget Sound. That's where he played his college ball. When he was done playing there, he was a coach there from 2010 to 2013. And might I add, in that time of playing and coaching, he was also coaching travel ball games here in Seattle he coached summer ball games travel ball games select ball games here in the Pacific Northwest while he was playing and coaching at Puget Sound so he's coached every level man and once he got to Puget Sound and did his time there he got the bump up he went to division one he was coaching at the University of Northern Colorado which is fairly low division one it's in the whack but he went up to division one he was at Northern Colorado for three years and Then he was hired by Cleveland to coach in their minor league system beginning in 2018. Then he got his really big jump because in 2020 he was hired by the Giants to be their bench coach and be on the big league staff. Then he became the Guardians field coordinator in 2024 after four years in San Francisco. So that was his first year in Cleveland. He was under Gabe Kapler the whole time. It sounds like, you know, once Kapler was let go, Giants turned over the staff. Kai found a new job in Cleveland. But I will say, technically, Kai is actually managed. Because for three games, he was the interim manager for the Giants when Gabe Kapler got fired. So it's not a ton of big league managerial experience, but technically it's not none. So shout out Kai. Anyway, Cleveland's big league bench coach, or I should say Cleveland's big league field coordinator in 2024. He was promoted to the director of defensive strategy in 2025. Mets bench coach in 2026. So Let me do that all one more time in a shortened version. Puget Sound player, Puget Sound coach, Northern Colorado coach, Cleveland Guardians minor league coach, Giants big league staff as a bench coach and infield coordinator, then to the Guardians staff as a field coordinator, then the Guardians director of defensive strategy, then the Mets bench coach, and he is 38 years old having done all that when obviously you graduate from college at about age 22. That is a pretty ridiculous ascension for a guy that started from the very bottom coaching high school travel ball games and division three games. It's pretty good. 00:57:19 Speaker 1: So here's the things we pick up on with Kai strong communicator explains his ideas well. And given the fact that he specializes in defense, that's a huge green flag. Like if there's one thing that, that would drive him crazy. It's watching the Mariners infield defense from 2026 and insist. 00:57:41 Speaker 3: That it get better. 00:57:42 Speaker 1: If you want the most basic principles on why you should like this guy as a candidate to be the Mariners manager next year, I think it's those. There are other things beyond that, but just basics for fans. Like those are three things the Mariners needed to get significantly better at. And I think he would, you know, he would be the guy for that. 00:58:00 Speaker 2: He would have his footprints and fingerprints. all over the Mariners infield work. There's no doubt about it because he is very, very experienced with it and very good at it. And he's really sharp. And as Jordan said, Jordan Schusterman on the podcast, that he's got about as much attention to detail as anybody he has ever seen. So go ahead. 00:58:25 Speaker 1: The con with Kai would be at his age and with his experience, could he command a clubhouse? That's probably it. Does he have the ability to create a culture and keep it and establish it and not have to worry about that? There's a lot of technical stuff that he's very good at, but can he be a leader of men? I think that's definitely one to keep a note of. And the fact that he doesn't have the experience, it probably leaves him also with the lowest floor among the candidates here because you just don't know. 00:59:02 Speaker 2: Yeah, because he just hasn't managed yet. And it's not similar to a Drew Butera situation where you're taking over. in dc for a nationals team that's not immediately expected to win kai obviously would come in here and be expected to win just about right away with a roster that's supposed to be really competitive And with players that aren't just up-and-coming players, there are fully established alphas in that clubhouse. And yeah, I'm sure one of the things Kai will be asked if he's interviewed is how he handles players like that. Now, he's been around players like that. I mean, he coaches Juan Soto every single day in Queens. It's not like he's not experienced with coaching alphas and coaching superstars. But he would, I'm sure, have to answer questions of how he would do as the leader of that, as the culture creator. There's no doubt. And that will be what's asked. But, man, the age, the attention to detail, his new age focus on analytics, his way of communicating, the way he talks with the media, how good he is with the media, I think this has the chance to be the type of guy where the Mariners take their swing, and if it hits, it's going to be a home run. I mean, it's... It would be their Mike McDonald if this works out. That would be the Mariners taking their swing. 01:00:23 Speaker 1: And if you look around baseball, the most successful managers, most of the most successful managers currently are all first-time managers. Kevin Cash was a first-time manager. Dave Roberts was a first-time manager. Aaron Boone was a first-time manager. Those are some pretty good names when it does work out. 01:00:42 Speaker 2: Very. You know, it's funny. We've done so much talking the last couple weeks about Kai Correa. And I don't know if we've let people actually listen to him. Maybe some people have sought it out in their own right, and we're just curious to hear a Kai Correa clip. Let me play you one clip for about 20 to 30 seconds here of Kai talking, where he was on a podcast a few years ago, and he was asked for qualities that he looks for in an effective coach. So listen to Kai's answer on this and think about what we just talked about in terms of his attention to detail and how well he speaks with the media, etc., And then compare it to Dan Wilson, too. Like, think about all the tough one-to-nights in your head and all the yeah-you-knows. And listen to Kai's answer here when he's asked what are effective qualities in a good coach. So here. 01:01:31 Speaker 6: I would say the first thing is preparation. Preparation includes organizational skills and preparation includes content knowledge, pre-existing content knowledge, right? So if I have organizational skills, I'm creating a flow of my lesson plan both for the flow of a single practice a set of practice an entire season right so I understand the arc of the season and what the players need to learn as a group and I'm prepared to tackle those tasks one at a time so it doesn't seem haphazard it doesn't seem disjointed the lessons build on each other the same way so that's part one the second part is elite communication skills right once you're prepared and you have a content knowledge base you have the communication skills and then transfer your knowledge to a player in bite-sized pieces. 01:02:16 Speaker 2: I don't know, man. That sounds like a guy with a plan to me. 01:02:21 Speaker 1: Very, very different than what was here this year. 01:02:24 Speaker 2: Very. And again, we can't sit here and promise he's going to be the hire. They may opt to go with experience, and if they go with experience, I fully understand. And I think there is reasons that totally warrant that. But I'll tell you what. They hire Kai Correa. He's not going to lack a plan. You can't guarantee it works out, You can't guarantee it works out with any of these guys. But that is not going to be a guy that comes in ill-prepared. I think the last guy certainly had his fair share of moments of ill-preparation. I can promise you, whether Kai wins or not, in whatever manager job he eventually gets, because he will be a big league manager, he will not be ill-prepared. 01:03:08 Speaker 1: Let's finish up with this last guy, Raul Abanez. This is not a name I was thinking about at all until this week. And now there's multiple people throwing his name out there as a name for the Mariners to possibly hire as manager. He's also got a pretty impressive resume since he retired. 01:03:27 Speaker 3: Listen to this. 01:03:28 Speaker 1: So Raul was a finalist for the raised managerial job that Kevin Cash eventually got in 2014 while Raul was still playing. Raul pulled himself out of that managerial search. So I don't think he was among like the final pick, or maybe they notified him they were going to pick Cash and he withdrew his name from it. But he was a finalist. First time interviewing, I think, I would guess. First time interviewing for a manager job. And he was a finalist for a raised job that has now been held for 12 years with Kevin Cash. 01:04:00 Speaker 3: That's pretty impressive. 01:04:02 Speaker 1: Since that point, he has held two different executive roles for the Dodgers and an executive role for Major League Baseball as well. So he's been high up with both the league and the league's most successful team and been a finalist for a Major League managerial job in about the decade since he's retired for Major League Baseball. And if you're asking some people out there what they think of Raul Chavez, I mean, John Marossi said that he thought that Raul Abanez is a future big league manager and it's when. 01:04:38 Speaker 3: Not if, for him. 01:04:40 Speaker 1: That's kind of intriguing. The issue is he also played for the Seattle Mariners. 01:04:46 Speaker 2: This one, much more so than Christopher Negron, certainly much more so than Tori Lavello, 32 years ago, Teej. This one is a little different because Raul Abanez was one of the 50 greatest Mariners. He is in that fraternity. He very, very much is tied to the organization. Hasn't been tied to the organization recently. Let's make that clear. He hasn't worked for Jerry. He hasn't played for the Oregon forever. He's never coached in the org, but. 01:05:16 Speaker 1: He lives 3000 miles away now in Miami or in South Florida. 01:05:20 Speaker 4: Yeah. 01:05:20 Speaker 2: Hell, we ran into him in South Florida and talked to him a couple of weeks ago. He was great. Like, Raul's a great dude, and he very, very clearly has had success post-career in front offices. Otherwise, he wouldn't have a serious role with the Dodgers. I just don't think that in the year of 2027, this. 01:05:41 Speaker 2: Could be the route the Mariners go. I mean, okay, let me stop myself and say this. If the Mariners seriously interview Raul Abanez and he is so far and away better than every other candidate that they look at themselves and say, how could we not hire this guy? He's so clearly the best option. Then, okay, then you're going to do what you're going to do. 01:06:03 Speaker 4: No, no. 01:06:04 Speaker 2: I mean, okay, listen, listen, I'm not done. If he's the best candidate, he's the best candidate. That being said, I don't, I really don't think they can go through with this one. I mean, I'm okay. See, I'm, I'm trying to figure out how to balance my words here. Cause I don't want to contradict myself. They should get the best candidate. The problem, the problem here is I just don't think in the year of 2027, they can do this because the last former Mariners player they hired with absolutely no experience was such a disaster and a dumpster fire that it's not fair to Raul. And it's not really fair to everybody in the fan base because to do this again. Now, in 2032, if the Mariners decided that they wanted to hire Raul Abanez to be their manager, and he's had even more time in the game and time in other places, and the Mariners have had a manager or two since then that aren't former players with no experience, okay, then that might be a real time to circle back. I just don't think that can be the successor to Dan Wilson after the way that just went down, for as qualified as Raul may be. 01:07:10 Speaker 1: I think it would be a PR disaster if they hired him. And it, as you said, has nothing to do with Raul or his qualifications or how good he could be as a manager. I just think this isn't even worth the discussion because I think it would be such a bad look if they did it. 01:07:26 Speaker 2: It would be a very, very tough narrative to spin. And again, yeah. 01:07:31 Speaker 1: I don't want to root against him because Raul was very, very nice to us and is very nice and very. 01:07:38 Speaker 1: Very positively revered across the baseball community, it seems. So like, I wouldn't want to have to do that, but this org just showed that they weren't even, they couldn't even properly hold Dan Wilson accountable over the course of a season and had to wait for like a disaster worst case scenario season to be over. 01:07:53 Speaker 3: To actually let them go. 01:07:55 Speaker 1: I can't let them have their opportunity to do that again with a, with a former player. I, you can't, you can't even allow the possibility of that. 01:08:04 Speaker 4: Sure. 01:08:05 Speaker 1: And where, where we have to hear that, like the relation, the future relationship with the organ, the guy you're about to fire is more important than the season that's happening. 01:08:15 Speaker 3: Like that can't happen again. 01:08:16 Speaker 4: Sure. 01:08:16 Speaker 1: It needs to be about winning baseball games. That's what it needs to be about. 01:08:20 Speaker 2: Yeah. That's, that's not fair to the fans. And honestly, man, even more than that, that's not fair to Raul Abanez. 01:08:26 Speaker 3: No, it's not. 01:08:27 Speaker 1: Nope. 01:08:28 Speaker 2: To have him hold that weight. Let me actually spin this. I do hope Raul Ibanez gets a managerial job. If he wants to be a manager this upcoming season, I hope he gets one. But there's going to be a lot of other jobs that are open besides the Mariners this offseason. And hopefully for Raul's sake, because he's a great dude who is very qualified, he gets a big league job. It's just with one of the other teams that has an opening, because it's just not fair to him or this fan base to have to take on that PR nightmare after what just went down with Dan Wilson. 01:08:58 Speaker 3: A hundred percent. 01:08:59 Speaker 4: Yeah. 01:08:59 Speaker 3: So good. 01:09:00 Speaker 1: I'm glad his name's floating out there. He seems like he will get a job eventually. It just can't be this one. 01:09:05 Speaker 4: Right. 01:09:06 Speaker 2: And he could manage the Mariners eventually. But again, circle back in three to five years. It just cannot be the guy that succeeds Dan Wilson. And it's not his fault. It's just for the PR nightmare sake of it. I think they just have to go a different direction. 01:09:22 Speaker 3: I mean, Lyle, I don't even know if I'd do that in five years. 01:09:25 Speaker 4: I wouldn't. 01:09:26 Speaker 3: I don't know. 01:09:27 Speaker 1: The org has told you it can't properly assess former players on working for them in positions that impact wins or losses. 01:09:39 Speaker 3: They can't do it. 01:09:40 Speaker 1: So I'm sorry. You just can't do it. If winning games is the focus, I don't think you can hire former players to be in charge. 01:09:48 Speaker 2: I'm just not going to put words in my mouth five years from now because if, I don't know, if in the next five years Raul Ibanez gets some managerial job, leads a team to a World Series, wins back-to-back managers of the year, and then the position opens in Seattle, then okay, I'd be very interested in having Raul Ibanez. I just wouldn't do it right now. I won't put words in my mouth five years from now. But I don't think he can be the guy that succeeds Dan Wilson. 01:10:17 Speaker 1: I think you and I are going to see the future a little differently in this, but that's fine. 01:10:20 Speaker 2: That's, that's, you don't know what the world's going to look like five years from now. What's that Kyle Shanahan quote from a few years ago when he asked, is Jimmy G still going to be the quarterback on Sunday? I don't know if I'm going to be alive on Sunday. You don't know what things are going to look like five years from now. Again, Raul might be Kevin Cash in five years. And if that's the case and the Mariners have an opening, then I'm not going to— Well, if he's. 01:10:45 Speaker 1: Kevin Cash in five years, then he's going to be hired by someone else and not available. 01:10:51 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, that's probably true, too. I'm just saying, extenuating circumstances, I'm not going to rule anything out years down the road. For 2027— Yeah, again, they should probably just look elsewhere. 01:11:02 Speaker 1: I don't trust the organization's judgment on their former players. I mean, Edgar Martinez still has a job in the organization. 01:11:09 Speaker 2: Yeah, he does. 01:11:10 Speaker 1: He's the director of hitting for a team that was, I think, 29th in runs scored. 01:11:15 Speaker 2: Well, and by the way, he wasn't even that great the first time. 01:11:18 Speaker 3: The first time, yeah. 01:11:19 Speaker 1: He did not continue as the hitting coach his first time, right? Again, I'm not taking personal shots at Edgar. It's just basic accountability of what Jerry talks about. For things they deem unacceptable. And it's clear that their judgment of this gets clouded because the player played for the organization and has a very good relationship with the org. 01:11:40 Speaker 4: Right. 01:11:42 Speaker 2: For now, let's just leave it at this. We are Raul Abana's fans. We are rooting for him. He's a great dude. And I hope he's a manager if he wants to be a manager. I just hope we get to talk to him next year and shake his hand and chat it up with him as he is managing wearing a jersey for one of the 29 other teams. Because unfortunately, it's just not fair to hammer any of the fans to have him succeed Dan Wilson. Correct. 01:12:05 Speaker 3: Very well said. 01:12:07 Speaker 2: I will throw out two other names here quickly that Passon mentioned. We won't break them down, but just so people have them on their radar. Passon threw out four names when he was on Brock and Salk over the past week. He's thrown out Rocco Baldelli. He's thrown out Brandon Hyde, who we didn't talk about. He's thrown out Joe Espada, who we didn't talk about. And I think he also mentioned Tori Lovello. So the two names that we're not going to break down, but that Passan also mentioned, Brandon Hyde, who was with the Orioles, and Joe Espada, who is still with the Astros, but all signs indicate he will not be the manager there next year. So if you want a couple other guys to keep on your radar, those could be a couple. 01:12:43 Speaker 3: Meh. 01:12:45 Speaker 2: Meh, that's your answer? 01:12:46 Speaker 3: Yeah. 01:12:47 Speaker 1: Yeah. 01:12:48 Speaker 2: We just don't really know. I mean, yeah, Brandon Hyde's tenured in and perfectly in Baltimore, but it's on the Mariners to get this right. If they interviewed Brandon Hyde and really believed he was the best guy, then okay. They are probably going to know better than us because they'll be in these interview rooms and we won't, but you better get this one right, man. You better get this one right because you're getting to hire a third manager and a lot of front offices don't get to do that. You have got to get this one right. 01:13:15 Speaker 1: Based on all the dialogue around this team, it's win next year or else. 01:13:21 Speaker 4: Correct. 01:13:21 Speaker 1: Well, make the playoffs next year. Otherwise, we're just going to do this again any year. 01:13:25 Speaker 4: Right. 01:13:26 Speaker 2: All right. That just about wraps up this edition of the Marine Layer podcast. You guys know the drill. If you want to listen to the full-form podcast, you can do so wherever you get your audio pods. Make sure to download if you're listening. Go rate and review. Please leave a five-star review. And then go hit subscribe if you're watching on YouTube. It all really helps. You can find us at our website, which is marinelayerpod.com. Go get your podcast merch, especially as we're into fall season. Go check out all our episodes, which are on our website. Our Patreon's on our website. That's at marinelayerpod.com. Then follow us across social media, you guys. We're everywhere. We're posting content all the time across all of our platforms at marinelayerpod. That's TJ. I'm Lyle. As always, we thank you guys for tuning in. Talk to you soon.