Episode 470: Why Are The Mariners Are Interviewing Astros Manager Joe Espada?

00:00:00 Speaker 1: Welcome to episode number 470 of the Marine Layer podcast. We'll react to the Mariners talking to current Astros manager Joe Espada for their managerial opening. 00:00:10 Speaker 2: Reminder to you guys before we get going here, just make sure you're downloading these podcast episodes. If you're listening, please go leave a five-star review if you have the chance. Hit subscribe on YouTube if you're watching, and you can find us both at our website, which is marinelayerpod.com, where we've got our merch, our Patreon, all that good stuff. And we're all over social media, so go check us out there too, all platforms, at marinelayerpod. 00:00:32 Speaker 1: Let's get it rolling. 00:00:33 Speaker 2: Let's get it rolling. 00:00:47 Speaker 1: And we welcome you to this episode of the Marine Layer Podcast, part of the Just Baseball Podcast Network, recording here on Tuesday evening, October 13th. I have a take, Lyle. 00:00:59 Speaker 3: Oh, this should be good. 00:01:01 Speaker 1: So I've been watching this postseason, of course, and you and I have given our takes on who we want to win and what the fallout of said win will mean. I actually have a new proposition that we have not talked about yet. Do you want to hear what it is? Mm-hmm. 00:01:17 Speaker 3: I don't think I have a choice. So yeah, lay it on me. 00:01:20 Speaker 1: I think it would have been the best case scenario this season. I know this sounds crazy for the Seattle Mariners to win the World Series. 00:01:31 Speaker 2: I think Mariners fans will hear that and say any year would have been the best case scenario for the Mariners to win the World Series. Because, wow, they've never been there. But I think I know where you're about. I think I know where you're about to go with this. So if this is your take, elaborate. 00:01:44 Speaker 1: But what if I said it was like the best case scenario for baseball? And yes, because if Mariners fans are happy, that is the best case scenario for baseball. If the Marine Layer podcast goes back to all positive and happy, then yes, of course, all baseball fans around the world will be significantly happier along with us. But I'm like, I'm watching the postseason this year and I see the four teams remaining, the Brewers, the Rays, the Guardians, and the Dodgers. And I say, you know what? I know I got on this podcast and I said, I want anyone but the Dodgers to win because a team like the Dodgers winning the World Series three times in a row, going into a CBA dispute is not good for baseball. It might just extend the lockout. But like, is it going to be good if the 30th payroll Cleveland Guardians win the World Series? And then we have to go into a CBA negotiation where every owner knows that They can run out the 30th ranked payroll in baseball and still win the World Series. And they're like, you know, we can do whatever we want in the CBA negotiation. Like, is that crazy? No. 00:02:57 Speaker 3: And it's funny. 00:02:57 Speaker 2: I guess the two of us haven't talked about this yet before jumping on. As the last few days have gone by, I've started to generate a pretty similar take. And the take is no matter who wins at this point. 00:03:07 Speaker 3: It's going to cause headaches. 00:03:08 Speaker 2: Because if the Dodgers win, you know the exact narrative the owners are going to be rolling with into the lockout, and it's the one that everybody's been talking about. Three Pete Dodgers. Nobody can outspend the Dodgers. Nobody can outcompete the Dodgers. Their rosters are unfair. It's ruining baseball. We've heard that one a million times, and you know the owners will use that one if they win. But if one of these other three teams win... Then these owners are going to look in the mirror and say, huh, why should we have to spend any money ever again? We can just do what those other teams do. Like, spoiler alert here, the problem is what a lot of these owners cannot do is employ the right people to put the right systems in place to set yourself up to win, like Cleveland's done, like Tampa's done, like Milwaukee's done, because there's a lot of really thoughtful, intelligent people in the baseball operations department of those organizations that A lot of these owners don't employ the right people to set up those systems in place. So then you have a stupid low payroll and people that are not competent of winning a championship inside of your organization. And that's what leads to headaches. 00:04:14 Speaker 1: The biggest problem I see here is that it's like a win-win for the owners. Either they will have a salary cap and their franchise valuations will shoot through the roof, or they realize they don't have to spend any money to win. I don't know how baseball wins from that. So, I would say the middle ground here is probably the Brewers. Because if one of the AL teams win, it's really a problem. Because the Rays are 28th in payroll and the Guardians are 30th. Now, the Brewers don't have a high payroll, but it's not nothing. They're 19th and their payroll sits at about $ 140 million, which is roughly $ 20 million less than what the Mariners are running out there. 00:04:55 Speaker 3: So. 00:04:56 Speaker 2: Again, that's not nothing. If you're trying to root for something where the owners don't get to hold something over everybody's head, the Brewers are probably the team to root for the rest of the way. 00:05:07 Speaker 3: Sure. 00:05:08 Speaker 1: And they might be the most complete team remaining. They might be the most entertaining to watch remaining. They're athletic. They pitch really well. They have the best pitcher in baseball, which is not a formula that everyone can repeat. I guess for like, the Mariners specific sake, I don't know if there's anything, any one specific team does going forward that will like impact them. Maybe there is one, but we can talk about that here in a few minutes. That can actually be one of the things we talk about here on this episode, but like, you know, the difference between like the managers, the difference between the playing styles. Cause to be honest, I actually, you know, another takeaway I've had, and I've seen, uh, seen Hembo tweet about this a lot about his, uh, manufactured runs are easier to score in the postseason, but homers end up winning more games that like it's not a coincidence that in this postseason, when we have all these low payroll teams in there, the home runs just happen to disappear completely from the playoffs. Like, is that really a surprise? 00:06:11 Speaker 2: No, of course not, because these three teams and to their credit, they've done it very well. are very good at finding market deficiencies. That's what the whole purpose of Moneyball is. That's what the story of Moneyball really tries to tell, is the A's find market deficiencies in Moneyball where the rest of the league devalues certain things. Right now, there is very clearly a market deficiency on contact first hitters. And those three teams have capitalized on it. 00:06:38 Speaker 3: And you know what? It has really, really worked to their credit. 00:06:41 Speaker 2: But the reason they have those guys on their team is because teams are not paying for them. If teams were paying $ 200 million a year for Chandler Simpson, then the Rays would turn around and have seven different Munataka Murakamis on their team where they would do nothing but hit home or strike out and draw walks and play bad defense, but they'd cost $ 5 million a year, so they'd sign them because they're cheaper, and that's how they'd structure their roster. They're finding the right market deficiencies. So home runs are down in the playoffs because. 00:07:15 Speaker 2: What's not valued right now in baseball is the contact first bats. Three of the four teams have really emphasized that to building their roster. And now you're seeing it on display in the post season. 00:07:26 Speaker 1: Right? Exactly. So we'll see who ends up winning, but the more and more I've watched this post season, that's been kind of my big takeaway. Now, why would it be a best case, best case scenario for the Mariners to win? Cause they're first of all, as Mariners fans getting world series is pretty awesome, but the Mariners do spend money. And they do develop stars. And they have extended and kept their stars, which I don't think enough teams in baseball, especially the Rays, do enough of. So the Mariners would be the example of, look, they developed all this homegrown talent. They've extended all their players. They've spent a decent amount of money. Not the most money. Not enough money. Well, I guess, actually, maybe it would be enough money if they won the World Series. The only problem is, Lyle, then we would have the. 00:08:12 Speaker 2: Then. 00:08:13 Speaker 1: Well, I guess maybe for this podcast's sake, we'd have to accept that Dan Wilson, the manager, is a World Series champion. But then again, maybe he would just be good enough at that point. 00:08:25 Speaker 3: Do we even want to reopen this? 00:08:28 Speaker 1: No, we don't. 00:08:29 Speaker 3: I was going to say, I've tried really, really hard. Not perfect. By no means perfect. I'm not going to lie. 00:08:35 Speaker 2: But since his dismissal, I've tried really hard to not just keep hammering at home on these podcasts to try and move forward. But, yeah, that would have been a hard pill to swallow. That would have been a very, very hard pill to swallow. But he would have had to do all the right things to get them to a World Series, which I would have had serious doubts about. Anyway, you know what would have honestly been a perfect team to win the World Series this year? You're talking about the Mariners, and I get it. You know who really would have been the perfect team? 00:09:03 Speaker 3: The Padres. 00:09:04 Speaker 2: That's a small market team, or that's a small market, San Diego's roughly 30th in market size, that spent a shitload of money and would have won a title going into the lockout, which would have made a lot of these small market owners look pretty, you know, it would have been a tough look saying, Hey, here's a small market team that's spending money to win. 00:09:26 Speaker 1: And it would have been fun because San Diego is a really fun team. They have a lot of really fun players on the roster. A West coast world series winner is always great. And we would have gotten a classic Padres Dodgers battle. But we didn't end up getting that, unfortunately, because instead the Padres ran into the Brewers, who have won even more games than the Dodgers this year. So there's, I think, another takeaway we have here from the postseason, unless you had anything else to add on to that. 00:09:54 Speaker 2: I do want to add one more thing about the Brewers, and I was going to say it's not all incompetence. but there probably is something the Mariners could take away a bit from the Brewers now to be clear I don't want them to structure their roster like the Brewers where I mean look the Brewers sorry that's the wrong way to phrase it because the Brewers just won 103 games they've been awesome I don't want a roster full of just contact bats that can't hit the home run ball because home runs are very, very valuable. And truthfully, that's what most of this Mariners roster is built on the ability to hit the long ball. But there is something to be said about the way the Brewers play their games. And they just find ways to get hits. You see what they do. I'm going to sound like a boomer here now. But you see what these guys do when they're down in the count and they have two strikes. And they just find a way to find grass. Single the other way. Single up the middle. Working count. The Mariners, I mean, it's like, I don't know what the average pitch number for a bats were for that team, but it had to have been insanely low because the swings and misses on the Mariners are unreal. 00:11:05 Speaker 1: I could tell you what it probably comes down to. It's preparation and scouting on their opposition and having a plan when you go to the plate. And yes, it amplifies a little bit in the playoffs because the energy's higher and you just perform at a higher level in the postseason when you're surrounded by that kind of adrenaline. But one thing we heard around the Mariners this year is that preparation was not a strong suit for this team. So, of course, the team that seems to be the most prepared in baseball happens to be the ones that won 103 games during the regular season and also had put together the best at-bats against the best pitchers in the league with the Dodgers. Like, of course. Of course that's the case. And it all starts with a leadership position in Pat Murphy, who... While not one single tactical thing on the field might be his strong suit, it's clear that his team respects him and that he instills the right kind of attitude for his players to prepare this way and go out and beat the hell out of the Dodgers. I think that's it. 00:12:04 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:12:05 Speaker 2: You mean that he doesn't exactly hone in a lot of new school philosophies in terms of in-game decision-making? 00:12:11 Speaker 3: Is that what you mean? 00:12:13 Speaker 1: I mean, he probably is good to work with. Maybe that's not his... the way he's always been taught, but it's not like, what have your values always been? It's like, what are you able to do for this current team? Cause this dude uses like seven, the oldest manager in the league, like spams Aaron Ashby out of the bullpen. 00:12:31 Speaker 3: Right. 00:12:32 Speaker 1: Like as a long reliever, like that's not an old school murder, a manager thing at all to do that. But like, that's, that's what cohesiveness between the dugout and the front office. You probably think, yeah, that's a great way to use that picture. Uh, like actually works and is actually very effective. 00:12:51 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:12:51 Speaker 3: So no, it's totally fair. I think Pat Murphy's done. Yeah. 00:12:54 Speaker 2: Pat Murphy's done some things. Well, I mean, obviously he's one manager of the year. He's managing the best team in major league baseball, regular season wise. And yeah, guys seem to really like playing for him. They certainly seem to, like you said, respect them. They certainly seem to get up for them. And you can just tell by their preparation and the way they go, they lock into each at bat. Listen, I don't really care that much about strikeouts because if you hit the home run ball and you score runs, I don't really care how you get out. But there is something to be said about the way that team grinds out of bats in a fashion that the Mariners do not. 00:13:33 Speaker 1: Especially in the postseason when you're going to play the team potentially seven times in a row and the more looks you can get at more pitchers, the better it's going to help you in the games later in the series. As I've grown more into being a baseball fan, like that has become more and more and more apparent as it goes. Like you don't need to get all of your wins in game one against the team because you're essentially, it's all part of, again, that's all part of planning. Like what you see come out of a pitcher's arm in game one, you could use to win in a big at bat in game six or game seven. And it means a lot if you're able to pull that off. And I think the Brewers have, very well against a team that is very talented and has a lot of really, really, really good arms. 00:14:15 Speaker 2: Oh, can you give an example? Sort of in a situation where a team sees something in game one and uses it in game seven? 00:14:21 Speaker 3: No way. 00:14:22 Speaker 1: In a championship series? That would be Edward Bazzardo, Lyle. Oh, it comes back to Edward Bazzardo. 00:14:29 Speaker 2: Who, you know, got out of the jam and sent the Mariners to the World Series last year, and then they played the Dodgers. 00:14:35 Speaker 3: Oh, wait, wait. They didn't? That didn't happen? 00:14:37 Speaker 1: It did not. No, it did not. Wow, I remember. 00:14:39 Speaker 2: Remember how I said like five minutes ago I was going to try to not reopen that bucket? 00:14:43 Speaker 3: Well, I lied. I just did. 00:14:47 Speaker 1: Let's open a new bucket. I think there's one more takeaway we have from this MLB postseason. Before we get into it, I want to tell you guys about Emerald Queen Casino's upcoming entertainment lineup. WFC 199 is this weekend at EQC on October 17th. Bear Grease on October 23rd. Patti LaBelle on November 7th. And Dwight Yoakam on November 14th. Get your tickets today at EmeraldQueen.com. Emerald Queen Casino is the entertainment capital of the Northwest. And while you're there, you can check out Slough Hall Steakhouse. Rooftop dining at Emerald Queen gives you mountain to sound views, paired with premium steaks and creative cocktails. You'll just have to see it to believe it. Come by Friday and Sunday from 4 to 10 p.m. and Saturday from 4 to 11 p.m. Get your reservation today on OpenTable or by calling 253-441-3101. That's 253-441-3101. Our last takeaway today. from this postseason, Lyle, is that you can take Stephen Fote's name off the Mariners' managerial board. That is not happening. I know. 00:15:54 Speaker 2: And it's sad to think about because that would have been such a match made in heaven for a hire. But I just don't see how that one's going to happen at this point. If the Guardians would truly have to trade him, why would they trade him at this point? The guy's won back-to-back manager of the year awards and now has managed his way into an ALCS. 00:16:14 Speaker 1: Do the Guardians want George Kirby? 00:16:19 Speaker 2: Well, maybe, but I don't think I mean, that that is an overpay. If you're the Mariners, let's be very clear. 00:16:26 Speaker 1: You're asking, like, what is it going to take to trade for Steven Vogt? I mean, that. 00:16:32 Speaker 3: It might it might take that. 00:16:35 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there was a part of me that had a belief that if the Guardians had lost to the White Sox and the ALDS, there would have been a part of Steven Vogt that said to himself, well, I look around and I see the roster I have, I see the payroll I have, I see the resources I have here in Cleveland, and there's a part of Steven Vogt that could have been thinking to himself, maybe I just can't get over the top here because there's just a lack of resources that Cleveland unfortunately does not have. Or he'd look back to Seattle and say, okay, You know, they don't spend like the Dodgers, that's for sure. But they have more payroll. They have more resources. They have more stars. They have more of a pitching... Well, actually, no. Cleveland's pitching staff's been pretty damn good this year, so I won't quite say that. But the Mariners have a good rotation. And you say, do I have more upside there, paired with the Seattle and Washington ties that him and his family already have? Yeah, there was a part of me that was thinking that during the White Sox series, where if they lost, he'd say, maybe I'd think about a change. 00:17:33 Speaker 3: Now. 00:17:34 Speaker 2: I don't see how that's happening. I just don't. I don't think the Mariners would fork up the money to buy him out of his contract. And I don't think the guardians are gonna either let him out of his contract or want to trade them away. 00:17:46 Speaker 3: I just don't see why. 00:17:49 Speaker 1: And if you're Steven vote, if you can make the world series with the 30th ranked payroll in baseball, you're like, huh? Like I can do that here. And this franchise has never been to the world series. It's not as much of a sales pitch if you can actually take that team that you're currently managing to the World Series. Because that's what they want. You want a shot at a championship. And if it's Guardians Brewers, I feel like Steven Vogt would be confident in his team's ability to potentially get the job done. They might not win, but you might feel better about it and encourage him to stay there into the future. And that's on top of him having a contract extension, which just makes this whole thing so much more difficult, as unlikely as it was in the first place. You just don't really have a sales pitch to the Guardians or to Steven Vogt about doing this. He would have to be so homesick right now. He would have to be missing Washington every single day to get him to do that. And that's what it took, for example, like Lou Piniella to leave the Mariners, right? He'd come off 2001 and 2002 where the team had constantly been great. He had every playoff appearance in franchise history. Literally, the only thing it took to get Lou Piniella away from the Mariners was family. That was it. And we have no indication. I mean, that was a big part. 00:19:13 Speaker 2: It was a part, but I think there was problems with ownership, too, that led him away. What? 00:19:19 Speaker 3: Yeah, with Mariners ownership. I mean, color me shocked. Hmm. Interesting. 00:19:24 Speaker 1: I haven't heard that one before. 00:19:26 Speaker 2: Never, never, ever have I heard anything like that before. Why would that ever happen to the Mariners? Yeah, I think it was a combination of both. I think it was a combo of going to Tampa and maybe having his time run its course in Seattle because he'd had enough of the people upstairs. 00:19:44 Speaker 1: Wow. Respect, honestly. Total respect. But that is what... it would take Stephen Vogt to become a Marinard. Doesn't seem likely at this point. So he could probably take his name off. They're not going to talk to him. They can't talk to him. Probably be banned from talking to him. 00:20:00 Speaker 3: Right. 00:20:02 Speaker 2: I mean, it's different than trying to interview a bench coach because if you were interviewing a bench coach with one of these playoff teams. 00:20:08 Speaker 3: like some of. 00:20:08 Speaker 2: The names that have been reported out there, Rodney Linares with the Rays or Danny Lehman with the Dodgers or guys like that. 00:20:19 Speaker 3: That would be one thing. 00:20:20 Speaker 2: You'd still have to wait until after the season, but those teams would almost certainly approve a request to be interviewed because that's for a promotion. Stephen Vogt would be getting a request and trying to get approval to get interviewed for a lateral position. 00:20:36 Speaker 1: Because the guy we're about to talk about next, the Mariners did need to get approval to talk to him because he's technically still under contract. That's how that works if a guy's not a free agent, technically. So, unfortunately, yeah, Stephen Vogt's name is off the board. We do now have a name that we can put on the board, what's supposed to be a very extensive board for the Mariners. They requested to the Houston Astros to interview Joe Espada. What was your reaction, Lyle, when you heard that this morning? 00:21:05 Speaker 2: Think a lot different than the mass reaction to it which the mass reaction seemed to be furious and i don't really know why you know what my reaction was to it initially good interview everybody that you can that was my reaction i knew that this they weren't bringing them in to interview them to say this is our new manager they're not asking to interview them to say well we don't need to do any more higher we don't need to do any more interviews after this no i said good Vet all your options. 00:21:34 Speaker 3: Look everywhere. Scratch every itch. Yeah, I said, good. 00:21:39 Speaker 2: Go interview somebody that's, I'm sure, got some tendencies on you as a division rival, knows you well, has scouted you well from all the times they've played you, and see what he has to say. 00:21:50 Speaker 3: Like, do everything you can. 00:21:52 Speaker 1: Adam Jude today put out a tweet that said the Mariners' managerial candidate list was 40 people long. If it's 40 people long, yeah, of course you're going to talk to Joe Espada. I would guess if we ended the season and you said, create a list of 40 guys that could be the manager for the Seattle Mariners next year, Joe Espada was going to be on that list. So if they were going to interview him, like, yeah, they were going to interview him. That doesn't mean you need to hire him. It doesn't need to mean that he's going to make your second round of interviews, any of that. But you can just... talk to him, ask him questions, see what he thinks, see if he's the kind of communicator you want. I think, well, I think there's just a little like confusion on like what, like what the mayor, like the situation, like judging the situation of like a manager in his previous spot versus a new spot. So Joe Espada did not have a good, the greatest tenure with the Houston Astros this, I think he won, ironically, 53% of his games. Close, but not exactly 54% of his games. 00:23:02 Speaker 3: Oh, so he's off Jerry's list then. He didn't win 54%. 00:23:07 Speaker 1: But that's not why they were interviewing him. So number one, they're going to interview him because it doesn't seem like the Astros are going to bring him back. The Astros, since they got busted for sign stealing, I feel like they've been run like shittily. Listen to the timeline of the Astros, right? So it's early 2020. I think it's November of 19 or January of 20. I don't remember which month. So the cheating scandal comes to light to Major League Baseball, and they make their suspensions. So A.J. Hinch is suspended and fired. Jeff Lunau is suspended and fired. That's the manager and general manager of the Houston Astros. They hire James Click as their GM and Dusty Baker as their manager. Both sign three-year contracts. three-year contract signed before the 2020 season expires after the 2021 season those two proceed to make the ALCS in 2020 and make the World Series in both 2021 and 2022 which they won the World Series with an unbelievable team in their latter year do you know what that earned the GM and and manager combo one-year deals after that Jim Crane offered them both one-year deal now Dusty Baker was old and knew probably knew he was going to retire after the season so said no problem I'll take a one-year deal James Click just organized arguably the best Astros team of that era and said, no, I'm not taking a one-year deal. 00:24:33 Speaker 3: So we left. 00:24:36 Speaker 1: Then they hired Dana Brown as the GM after James Click left. And then they hired Joe Espada as the bench coach to replace Dusty Baker. What happens three years. 00:24:45 Speaker 3: After that, Lyle? No extensions. 00:24:49 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:24:50 Speaker 3: No extensions at all. 00:24:52 Speaker 1: So it's the same thing where I seriously, I don't think Jim Crane is taking his like senior employees in the dugout in the front office seriously enough. And if it's him and also like he meddles a ton. So like you look at the roster Joe Espada has had to work with like these three years. I think it's a little tough to, to evaluate maybe like the, like everything that comes along with Joe Espada, in my opinion. For someone who's made the playoffs now twice. 00:25:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, and from all we heard, Dana Brown wasn't the world's greatest GM. There's a reason he's not back. So maybe he wasn't the easiest person in the world for Joe Espada to work with. It's all possible. 00:25:34 Speaker 3: I will say this. 00:25:36 Speaker 2: I mean, to your point about Jim Crane meddling and the Astros not running themselves well since, I guess really since they won the World Series in 22, but you could argue since 2020, since the start of the decade. 00:25:50 Speaker 3: When Click left, how did they replace him? 00:25:53 Speaker 2: How did an analytically driven team who had done so many things so well for about 10 years decide to replace their GM that up and left because you didn't offer him what he was worth? Oh, they let Jeff Bagwell start running baseball operations. A guy who has no feel on the modern game. 00:26:11 Speaker 1: And by the way, you would guess who got more input into the baseball operations once it was announced that Dana Brown and the Astros mutually parted ways. It was Jeff Bagwell. It's pretty clear that Jim Crane loves listening to Jeff Bagwell on what they should do with this roster. And I'm going to be frank, hasn't worked out very well. The names that have left the Astros in the last five years, Alex Bregman, George Springer, Carlos Correa, Justin Verlander, who, by the way, was 41 years old when he left. Not exactly his prime. Jeremy Pena, almost certainly is going to leave the Astros because they offered him an extension and he turned it down. And then Fran Bervaldez after last season, though that might have been warranted. There's been a lot of talent that's gone out the door and it's not like the Astros have replaced it very well. Joe Espada was essentially gifted from that 2022 pitching staff that was the best pitching staff in baseball. It has essentially been whittled down loud to the worst pitching staff in baseball. Like, I don't know how you're supposed to work with that as a manager. Again, we're not Astros fans, so we can't sit here, like we were with Dan Wilson, able to sit here and say, man, this guy does not know what he's doing when it comes to managing a game or managing a clubhouse. But from everything we were reading online from the people who actually cover the team, it didn't really seem like, even if Joe Espada's not the world's greatest manager, that he's the reason things were so bad in Houston, because I just don't think that team's very talented. You're looking for a reason why they didn't win games. 00:27:48 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:27:49 Speaker 2: I mean, you brought up that Chandler Rome tweet who covers the Astros for the athletic. And he said the reason the Astros were bad last year was because they were poorly constructed, not because they were poorly managed. 00:28:01 Speaker 3: Yes. 00:28:02 Speaker 1: So at least give Joe Espada a chance. And remember, there are things you look for in a manager that don't have anything to do with the decision-making on the field that might lead to wins and losses. Again, my number one question for Joe Espada, how is he going to communicate with his players? How is he going to communicate with Julio Rodriguez? How is he going to communicate with a teammate that has potentially just stirred up trouble in the clubhouse? How do you handle that situation? How do you communicate with the front office to best utilize the players on your roster? That might be the most important thing. And again, hopefully Joe Espada answers that well. 00:28:40 Speaker 3: And let's say this again. I really want to harp on this. 00:28:44 Speaker 2: Nobody's saying Joe Espada is going to be the next manager of the Mariners. The reason I think you saw a large reaction and a pretty loud reaction from a lot of the mass fan base across social media here on Tuesday when it got reported is because he's just the first name out there. Divish reported the Canada pool will be 20-plus. Jude reported it's going to be 40. The point being, the Mariners are going to talk to a lot of people. They are going to cast their net far and wide. Joe Espada just happens to be the first public name that's been out there reported. And the Mariners fans, some of them, will see that and say, well, he managed an Astros team that wasn't very good. He couldn't get them to win. And their immediate knee-jerk reaction is, well, no, I don't want him here. Look, if you don't want Joe Espada at the top of your list to be the Mariners' next manager, if he's not at the top of your list, totally warranted. 00:29:35 Speaker 3: And I think there's reasons it's warranted. But there's no reason they shouldn't interview him. him, you guys. 00:29:40 Speaker 2: There's no reason you shouldn't hear him out. There's no reason you shouldn't listen to what he has to say. And at the very least, if he's not going to be your guy, then maybe you've picked up some things from him as a de facto way to get some intel from outside your organization on what people think of you and how people pick you apart. Joe Espada is definitely going to have some insight on that. Cause he went against them 17 times a year. 00:30:07 Speaker 1: And you haven't gotten something like that in 10 years since they hired Scott service, right? Get honest. This is the only time that like on the record, Jerry DePoto can sit the manager of another team down at the table with him to give his honest evaluation of his baseball team. Right. The only, only time they'll give away those, those kinds of secrets. Because that's the kind of process that's going on. And you know what? It's probably good for Jerry DePoto to hear some of those things and Justin Hollander so they can tweak what they're doing as well and what they're prioritizing and information gather for the future. So there will be more names out there for the Mariners to interview. I wouldn't get too tied up in this one. 00:30:47 Speaker 2: No, guys, like they will almost certainly interview our guy, Kai Correa. 00:30:52 Speaker 3: By the way, quick side note. 00:30:54 Speaker 2: I think we've really gotten some people invested in this one, and I'm glad because all of a sudden, more and more, I'm seeing a lot of people either on our comments or just on Twitter and on social media in general starting to really bang this drum with us on Kai Correa. So it seems like we've done some decent groundwork so far on it. It doesn't mean that's who the Mariners will hire, but I think we're getting the word out there well, I will say. 00:31:15 Speaker 1: And people with every outlet that's reporting things has listed his name. Whether or not he's going to be the guy, he's definitely going to be someone the Mariners will at least call and ask to interview potentially, or at least call and have an intro conversation to see what's it about and hopefully blows them away. Right. 00:31:32 Speaker 2: So the point is, I'm sure there will be reports out there at some point about Kai Correa. I'm sure then you'll see some about Rocco Baldelli. I'm sure you'll see some about Brandon Hyde. I'm sure you'll see some about some of the other names that have floated out there as potential Mariners options. Like, you will see all the names. It's just that Espada's the first one, or at least the first one that's been reported. And honestly, there's a chance that the Mariners don't want all this out there. There's actually a chance that the reason this is now public, that Espada's getting this interview, is that Espada's camp leaked it. Because if they think Espada's not going to be the manager of the Astros anymore, there's a chance Espada's, it's from Espada's camp. 00:32:12 Speaker 1: You know who it was? Who? 00:32:13 Speaker 3: The Astros. 00:32:14 Speaker 1: Actually, no, actually, no, you're right. It was actually, I mean, think about this more. You're totally right, Lyle. I disregard everything I just said. It's absolutely Espada's camp saying, hey, we're going to make this public. You're letting your manager out to dry. Also, it is still the weirdest thing to me, Lyle, that the Astros are just like going to let Espada's contract expire, not even just like make a decision on him. Just be like, yeah, like how hard is it to say, yeah, he's not coming back next year. We're not offering a contract. Instead, they're just like, yeah, we don't know. 00:32:44 Speaker 3: The Jim Crane special. 00:32:45 Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you're at Spada's camp and you're starting to get the sense he won't be back in Houston, of course you want it out there that he's being vetted for other interviews because it makes his name seem more desirable. So I'm sure that— I shouldn't say I'm sure. It's likely that it came from his camp. Again, if I were to guess, the Mariners probably don't want a bunch of names leaked out there yet. I would bet you they would rather— Not have every single name become public until they get to their finalists, until they get to their final four or five. But I'm guessing we're hearing about this because Espada's camp probably wants it out there that he's getting looked at for other interviews. But again, one way or another, we will hear that other candidates are getting their chances to talk to the Mariners. This is just the first one. Doesn't mean Espada's the guy. If you don't want Espada to be the guy, totally get it. 00:33:33 Speaker 3: Totally fair. 00:33:34 Speaker 2: There's reasons why you should have your shields up to some extent. But the fact the Mariners are interviewing him is a good thing because they are trying to cast a wide net. And I'm going to break my rule again. I'm going to contradict myself again from earlier in the podcast about not reopening the bucket. But I'm going to say it again. You know what happens when you don't do a thorough interview process? You end up with Dan Wilson. 00:34:00 Speaker 1: Well, also, you know all the things we complained about at the end of the year and that Jerry highlighted that needed to get. maybe not totally overhauled, but seriously reevaluated again, where the Mariners get too insular. When you're not collecting feedback from people who potentially want to join your organization, you have the chance of just listening to yourself in the echo chamber too much. And what happens in 2026 happens in that case, where the conversation we had about the pitching staff and the pitching coaches and whether that was doing the same thing too. It kind of, you know, comes back to that. So all of this is a good thing. And the Mariners will continue to talk to candidates. I believe we have a timeline now. Hopefully before Halloween. It was reported by the Times. 00:34:48 Speaker 3: That's what they said? Oh, before Halloween? 00:34:50 Speaker 1: I think so. I mean, it makes sense. You want, before a free agency starts, you want a manager in place. 00:34:54 Speaker 2: Fair. 00:34:55 Speaker 1: Because how else are you? Hey, Seiya Suzuki, come play for us. Who's our manager? 00:35:01 Speaker 3: Who are you going to be playing for? 00:35:03 Speaker 1: We don't know. 00:35:03 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:35:05 Speaker 1: No one's accepted anything yet. 00:35:07 Speaker 2: I must have missed that in the times. OK, that's good to know that this thing could wrap up in the next couple of weeks. 00:35:11 Speaker 3: Well, that'll be good. 00:35:12 Speaker 1: I believe I believe that is what I saw today. But again, it makes sense before the World Series ends, before the offseason starts, the new manager, I would think, has to be in place. Sure. 00:35:22 Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes total sense. 00:35:23 Speaker 2: Maybe it'll be a couple of days after the World Series ends or something. But yes, like before free agency really gets going for sure. 00:35:29 Speaker 1: Yes. Before you have to convince players to come play for you. 00:35:32 Speaker 2: Yeah. By the way, you know who I think enjoys listening to the sound of his own voice? 00:35:38 Speaker 3: Jerry DePoto. What? 00:35:42 Speaker 1: No. 00:35:43 Speaker 2: You were talking about an echo chamber and hearing your own voice too much. I mean, I think Jerry DePoto hears a lot of his own voice a lot of the time, and maybe now they're finally starting to get out away from that a little bit. 00:35:54 Speaker 1: I think he might have finally self-reflected a little bit when he publicly acknowledged he wouldn't have been shocked if he got fired this year. Wow. better late than never. Yeah. All right. 00:36:06 Speaker 2: Any closing thoughts or you got everything out that you had on your mind about Joe Spada? 00:36:11 Speaker 1: Let's not freak out before the off season starts, please. 00:36:14 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:36:15 Speaker 1: Thank you. And unless, unless the Mariners are, unless you are going to say it, what happens between now and the off season starting is Mariners hire X Mariners player with no managerial experience. to manage the 2026 Mariners, that's probably the only way I freak out. 00:36:34 Speaker 2: I think I'll even take it one step further. The only way I freak out is if, no, you know what? 00:36:39 Speaker 1: Nope, nope. 00:36:40 Speaker 2: I've already broken my rule twice and I just stopped myself in real time. I just stopped myself in my own tracks. Not even going to reopen the bucket again. I'm just going to say what you said is facts. That is the only way I'd be truly mad. If the Mariners actually hired Joe Espada, I might have some questions, but I wouldn't be mad. I think it'd be like, It'd be fine. He'd be a fine hire. I don't know if he's the exciting hire, but he'd be a fine hire. It's like what it would be like a whatever hire. 00:37:07 Speaker 1: Like, all right. Like to be determined on whether or not he's a good fit for this team or not. So correct. Like what I do know is that, you know, the bar is pretty low for what it takes for this team to succeed the town on this team to do better. 00:37:22 Speaker 3: So, yeah, agreed. 00:37:25 Speaker 2: All right, that just about wraps up this edition of the Marine Lair podcast. You guys know the drill. If you want to listen to the full-form podcast, you can do so wherever you get your audio pods. Make sure you download these episodes if you're listening. Please go rate and review if you do so, and leave it five stars while you're at it. It really, really does help the channel a ton. If you're watching on YouTube, take a second to go hit subscribe. And while you're at it, you know what? We've got a whole website where you can keep up to date with us too. That's marinelayerpod.com. All of our podcast merch is there. Our Patreon's there. Our episodes, you can find them all there. marinelayerpod.com. And then check us out on social media. We're posting content all the time, every day, across all of our platforms, at marinelayerpod. 00:38:04 Speaker 3: That's TJ. I'm Lyle. 00:38:06 Speaker 2: As always, we thank you guys for tuning in. We'll talk to you soon.