Lyle and TJ dive into their theory on why Jorge Polanco is taking so long to decide on his 2026 option, and how it could benefit the Mariners (2:30). They then break down their reliever grades for the 2025 season:
Andres Munoz (18:13)
Matt Brash (30:49)
Gabe Speier (36:03)
Eduard Bazardo (41:27)
Carlos Vargas (47:12)
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00:00 --> 00:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to episode number 321 of the Marine Lair podcast to all hand out some reliever grades of the 2025 season and we have a theory on why Jorge Polanco is taking so long to make a decision about his 2026 option.
00:14 --> 00:17 [SPEAKER_00]: A reminder to you guys just before we start the show.
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01:06 --> 01:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And we welcome you to this episode of the Marine Lair podcast part of the Just Baseball podcast network recording here on Tuesday evening November 4th This is the first episode we have done without a game in between recordings since early February.
01:24 --> 01:24 [SPEAKER_00]: How does it feel?
01:26 --> 01:29 [SPEAKER_00]: See, this is when it's the time of the year that really starts to suck.
01:29 --> 01:33 [SPEAKER_00]: It's dark at four o'clock, and there's no baseball, and we're not close to the winter meetings yet.
01:34 --> 01:35 [SPEAKER_00]: We still got a month ago.
01:35 --> 01:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I shouldn't say it's sucks.
01:37 --> 01:38 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't suck.
01:38 --> 01:39 [SPEAKER_00]: We still want to talk baseball.
01:39 --> 01:51 [SPEAKER_00]: There's still interesting storylines, but like for the baseball people out there, November is a little bit of the dark times on the calendar, because it's like, it is the deadest time of the year.
01:52 --> 01:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Spinzone, what if this is our peak?
01:54 --> 01:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we can just play fantasy land.
01:57 --> 01:59 [SPEAKER_00]: You can play a lot of fantasy land.
01:59 --> 02:00 [SPEAKER_00]: That's fun.
02:00 --> 02:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And getting to hypothesize on a bunch of scenarios is fun.
02:03 --> 02:07 [SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like a lot of that really starts to kick into gear when the winter meeting starts happening.
02:08 --> 02:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And you start to hear rumors.
02:09 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And you start to plug and play ideas into our idea board and onto our blue print.
02:15 --> 02:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Because everybody fantasizes about what their team could do in the off season.
02:18 --> 02:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, unless you're like the pirates.
02:21 --> 02:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's, I mean, they do.
02:23 --> 02:25 [SPEAKER_01]: They just dream of the team getting sold.
02:27 --> 02:27 [SPEAKER_00]: No.
02:30 --> 02:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're not alone.
02:31 --> 02:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, well, anyway, on that note, yeah, we can hypothesize about a lot of things.
02:39 --> 02:42 [SPEAKER_00]: That's for sure, but I do miss baseball already.
02:43 --> 02:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of hypothesizing, there's a great way to start off this episode.
02:46 --> 02:54 [SPEAKER_01]: There's been some hypothesizing in the Mariner's online forums over the last couple of days, and Laune, I thought we'd give our take on it.
02:54 --> 03:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So the Mariner's have come out and they've been deciding on options for players, whether they want to pick up an option, or not pick up an option, for whether or not they want the player to be on the 2026 roster.
03:05 --> 03:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Andreas Moonios had his option picked up Shocker, Mitch Garver had his option declined.
03:11 --> 03:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Another shocker.
03:13 --> 03:18 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's one option that still hasn't been decided of as of Tuesday night, as of recording.
03:19 --> 03:22 [SPEAKER_01]: The deadline is Friday.
03:22 --> 03:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
03:22 --> 03:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe you.
03:24 --> 03:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So Jorge Polanco hasn't till Friday and believe it's his decision whether or not he wants to take $6 million to play for the Mariners next season.
03:34 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_01]: in an objective, staring at it way right now.
03:38 --> 03:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he is going to pick it up.
03:41 --> 03:49 [SPEAKER_01]: However, I think there is a way you could think about it for it working out for the Mariners and for Jorge Planco if he does pick it up.
03:50 --> 03:50 [SPEAKER_00]: What would that be?
03:51 --> 03:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So let me just say this.
03:52 --> 03:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually don't know how much discourse there's been online about this.
03:56 --> 03:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Have you seen people talking about what we're about to throw out there?
03:59 --> 04:00 [SPEAKER_00]: JJ was talking about it.
04:01 --> 04:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay, so maybe a couple of people have and I was thinking about it a little bit in my own right and I texted you about it.
04:07 --> 04:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And to be fair, there was somebody on Brock and Salk this morning who this morning who texted in on Tuesday and asked about this potential idea too.
04:15 --> 04:17 [SPEAKER_00]: So I thought maybe this would be interesting to talk about.
04:18 --> 04:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a chance the Mariners are already working with Jorge Polanco to get something done before Friday's deadline?
04:25 --> 04:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
04:26 --> 04:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
04:27 --> 04:27 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a chance.
04:28 --> 04:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they had thought about this a year and it or maybe not a year in advance, but once Jorge was playing well this year, they'd know what the budget is, right?
04:36 --> 04:46 [SPEAKER_01]: The best way to go around, to get around the fact that Jorge Polanco has earned himself a lot more money in free agency is to bring that number down.
04:46 --> 04:50 [SPEAKER_01]: and the best way to bring that money down is to incorporate it into the current contract.
04:51 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So here's the idea of float it out there for Jorge Polanco.
04:54 --> 04:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Jake threw these numbers out here.
04:55 --> 05:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just I'll credit him on on the exact numbers for what he's suggesting.
05:00 --> 05:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So he's suggesting that Jorge Polanco would roughly get in free agency a two year twenty four million dollar contract.
05:06 --> 05:12 [SPEAKER_01]: which for someone at his age playing or the lack of playing a position that he is at this stage of his career.
05:14 --> 05:20 [SPEAKER_01]: It would make more sense that he's going to get a short deal for a higher AAV.
05:21 --> 05:27 [SPEAKER_01]: What if the Mariners encompass that into his current deal?
05:27 --> 05:34 [SPEAKER_01]: paying him more guaranteed money as opposed to what you get on the free agent market while also helping the mariners out and getting a lower A.
05:34 --> 05:37 [SPEAKER_01]: A. V. So how does the math work out on that?
05:38 --> 05:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe this will become a three year 30 million dollar deal and it could be current 10 million dollars a year.
05:43 --> 06:13 [SPEAKER_01]: A problem arises, of course, if a team offers Jorge Polanco a $3
06:13 --> 06:25 [SPEAKER_01]: The Mariners have come out and they've said about the 164 million dollar payroll that they had at the end of the season this past year in 2025 is about their starting point.
06:26 --> 06:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Starting point can be interpreted in a number of ways, but let's pretend that's a rough area of where they're going to be one spring training starts.
06:35 --> 06:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just say that.
06:36 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Although to your point about, we don't know exactly what that means.
06:41 --> 06:54 [SPEAKER_00]: There is a chance it means, I'm not saying it's a high percentage chance, but a chance that it means that should be where people expect the minimum of the payroll to be when the offseason comes to an end, and it has the potential to be well up above that.
06:54 --> 06:54 [SPEAKER_00]: It's possible.
06:55 --> 06:55 [SPEAKER_00]: No, be great.
06:55 --> 06:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we know they brought in a lot of money this year.
07:00 --> 07:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Just to note for everybody to remember, the Mariners highest payroll ever is $171 million.
07:08 --> 07:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Now inflation's going to change that, but inflation does change it, but to set a record payroll, they would need to go above that number.
07:15 --> 07:23 [SPEAKER_01]: But let's just use 164 million as a number here as a soft ceiling for now.
07:23 --> 07:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's what we know.
07:25 --> 07:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
07:25 --> 07:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Let me be fair really quickly.
07:26 --> 07:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess we don't know for a fact the Mariners brought in a ton of money, but you can only assume based off where attendance was playoffs, ticket sales, jersey sales, etc.
07:37 --> 07:40 [SPEAKER_00]: You can only assume they brought in a pretty good chunk of changes here.
07:42 --> 07:49 [SPEAKER_01]: The number that the Mariners are going to be at after all their players settle their arbitration and they add up all the money from the players making League minimum.
07:49 --> 07:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Going into next season is about $133 million.
07:53 --> 07:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Spotrack had it at 143, but we got a couple emails about it, a couple people have comments about it.
07:59 --> 08:02 [SPEAKER_01]: The math adds up a little bit.
08:02 --> 08:04 [SPEAKER_01]: cleaner to $133 million.
08:04 --> 08:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's use that number.
08:06 --> 08:15 [SPEAKER_01]: That gives the Mariners $31 million to spend to get to that sort of soft ceiling that they have right now.
08:15 --> 08:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Jorge Polanco, if you were to sign them to a free agent deal, two for 24 he declines his option, gives you I assume a 12 million dollar cap hit next year.
08:27 --> 08:29 [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to sign Josh
08:30 --> 08:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Josh Newler's projected market right now is as low as I think I've seen 17 and a half million.
08:35 --> 08:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen it as high as over $20 million.
08:37 --> 08:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say Josh Newler gets 20 on the open market per year.
08:42 --> 08:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Your past, your soft ceiling, right there with just those two.
08:46 --> 08:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Just replacing production from last season that you already had on the roster.
08:49 --> 08:58 [SPEAKER_01]: But just because you had to give a raise, that pushed as you passed the $31 million that you had to spend, you spent 32 million for next season.
08:58 --> 09:14 [SPEAKER_01]: But, if Jorge Polanco takes a lower AAV and adds an extra year, and that number is all the sudden down to $10 million, then you're under that number, and then you still have technically a little bit of wiggle room that the Mariners would work around, I would say.
09:16 --> 09:17 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a rough estimate right there.
09:17 --> 09:19 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not even trading anyone away to create space in this.
09:19 --> 09:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying how a little thing like that can affect the payroll on the team.
09:25 --> 09:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And we said, if they do something like bring back Nailer, bring back Pelonco, an out of bullpen arm, that is a good off-season.
09:31 --> 09:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So that would be two of the three moves right there.
09:34 --> 09:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Who knows?
09:35 --> 09:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they'd be willing to just spend a little bit more and go get Devon Williams too.
09:41 --> 09:42 [SPEAKER_00]: It was like we talked about.
09:42 --> 09:48 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know if they're gonna start the year firmly at $164 dead stop.
09:49 --> 09:50 [SPEAKER_00]: They could use a little bit more.
09:50 --> 09:54 [SPEAKER_00]: They deemed Devon Williams to be worth it and he'd be interested in playing here.
09:55 --> 09:57 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, that is in their budget.
09:57 --> 10:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And if Jorge Polanco were to take the three or 30 million dollar deal, then yeah, it would make, it would make other acquisitions just a little bit easier.
10:08 --> 10:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking in the Devon Williams camp, though.
10:10 --> 10:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I think Spotrack was a little off.
10:14 --> 10:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I'm going out there and Spotrack projected 5.7 million.
10:20 --> 10:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Not seeing a whole lot of 5.7 million for Devon Williams.
10:23 --> 10:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Adam Jude said roughly one for ten is what he projected.
10:27 --> 10:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I could see that.
10:29 --> 10:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd take that in a heartbeat.
10:30 --> 10:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
10:31 --> 10:39 [SPEAKER_01]: If they get up to $164 million in 2026, payroll with those two players though, I don't think they're spending $10 million on a reliever.
10:40 --> 10:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know the biggest takeaway I had for doing this exercise?
10:44 --> 10:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Luis Castillo, Randy Arozer, and are getting traded.
10:48 --> 10:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
10:48 --> 10:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I just, I can't find a way to mariners operate this off season.
10:53 --> 10:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And upgrade in enough areas as they need to without trading one of those two and clearing space.
10:58 --> 11:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they should just spend the 10 extra million bucks.
11:03 --> 11:04 [SPEAKER_00]: They should.
11:04 --> 11:06 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the Mariners we're talking about.
11:07 --> 11:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying we don't know exactly what Jerry's comments mean for certainty.
11:12 --> 11:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they'll spend a little extra.
11:13 --> 11:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And that would make things a lot easier.
11:17 --> 11:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you don't have to trade those guys away.
11:19 --> 11:21 [SPEAKER_00]: No, because I don't know.
11:21 --> 11:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what you're getting back for either of those guys.
11:24 --> 11:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's going to help you much on your big league roster in 26.
11:26 --> 11:27 [SPEAKER_00]: That's for sure.
11:27 --> 11:28 [SPEAKER_02]: No.
11:28 --> 11:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, we can focus on those guys later in the offseason because we'll have plenty of time to talk about it.
11:33 --> 11:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I think we already discussed that that's a bad faith move to Trader Rosarana.
11:38 --> 11:41 [SPEAKER_00]: But in terms of Jorge Polanco, because that's the topic here.
11:42 --> 11:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And in terms of what he think about this, because that's what I wanted to focus on a little bit before we get to the relievers.
11:47 --> 11:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think he think about it.
11:49 --> 11:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Now we're going to get some answers here before Friday.
11:52 --> 11:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe this podcast will come out on Wednesday and at some point on Wednesday we find out he's declined his option and he's hitting for agency.
11:57 --> 12:07 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're Jorge Palanco, by all accounts you liked it here in Seattle, by all accounts you had success here at least in year two.
12:08 --> 12:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're him, think about what happened the first time you had to join a new organization and how things went.
12:15 --> 12:16 [SPEAKER_00]: He did tough first year.
12:16 --> 12:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And could that be credited to injury?
12:19 --> 12:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Could it be credited though to the fact that the change of scenery can be a tough adjustment for some players?
12:26 --> 12:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think both those things are possible.
12:28 --> 12:29 [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about it.
12:29 --> 12:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Jorge Polago spent nearly 15 years in one org and in year one in a new organization, new spring training location, Arizona not Florida, a new city, new home, new drive to work, everything.
12:40 --> 12:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it was in a little bit of a maybe it was a little bit of an adjustment.
12:44 --> 13:14 [SPEAKER_00]: isn't there a chance that he might not want to do that again and if he's already comfortable in a certain place with a team he knows is going to be competitive he would think about working something out early on and to just get it settled because he also signed late last winter he could have things settled now ultimately money talks and if the money's not there he's not going to sacrifice everything but there's a deal on on the table that's fair and there's something like this three for thordy deal out there
13:15 --> 13:17 [SPEAKER_01]: If they offer him this, the money is talking.
13:17 --> 13:18 [SPEAKER_01]: He gets three years.
13:20 --> 13:21 [SPEAKER_01]: He's going to be 33 in the middle of next year.
13:22 --> 13:29 [SPEAKER_01]: This is probably his last best chance at free agency in securing a multi-year deal for significant cash.
13:30 --> 13:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And what better way to do that than to essentially cash in on your your best case market like he's not going to have another market like this as a free agent so why not instead the Mariners just give you an extra six million dollars in cash essentially.
13:46 --> 13:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, they could structure it differently than just doing 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 3 times.
13:53 --> 14:05 [SPEAKER_01]: They could say, Jorge will pay you $6 million in 2025, really help us out from a salary cap perspective, and then you get 12 the next two years.
14:05 --> 14:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's salary cap, but spending, spending, sorry, budget cap, and and and work that out.
14:13 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And he gets paid more money than he would make perhaps on the open market, and he gets an extra year, security rate doesn't have to worry about looking for a job.
14:21 --> 14:23 [SPEAKER_01]: That means a lot to some of these guys getting those extra years.
14:24 --> 14:34 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like Bryce Harper taking a three, a 13-year contract for $330 million, like he helps out the fillies with that and the fillies help him out by
14:35 --> 14:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, yeah, there's no doubt.
14:38 --> 14:40 [SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna find out here in the next couple days.
14:40 --> 14:47 [SPEAKER_00]: This could all just be a nothing burger and it ends up that Jorge just goes to free agency and starts to hit the open market.
14:48 --> 14:57 [SPEAKER_00]: But I just feel like this is something he would probably consider, and I just assume it's something the Mariners would want to consider, knowing that he's somebody that you can basically plug in as your DH a lot.
14:57 --> 15:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you need him at second base and a pinch, you could put him at second base.
15:01 --> 15:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And I hate to say it.
15:05 --> 15:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want, look, I don't want this to be the solution, but if something goes south with Naylor and he goes elsewhere and you get Polanco back in the fold early, you have an emergency option here in how it first base.
15:16 --> 15:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want that to be the full-time option and the permanent solution, but at least you have something in the fold early where you know you can build off it.
15:24 --> 15:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think anyone else would offer Jorge Polanco with three years?
15:29 --> 15:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe.
15:31 --> 15:38 [SPEAKER_00]: If a team feels like they're a bad away, and they really liked what he did this year, and saw he hit so well from both sides of the plate and at the playoff success.
15:39 --> 15:41 [SPEAKER_00]: But again, if you're a polonco, do you want to pick up and move again?
15:41 --> 15:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to go somewhere you've never been?
15:43 --> 15:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to go through that change again?
15:45 --> 15:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what type of effect that had on him in the first year, and if it really killed him mentally, but if it did, and again, this is pure speculation.
15:54 --> 15:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I have no idea, but if it did, maybe that draws him back to Seattle a little bit more.
16:00 --> 16:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I can't imagine he's going to want to go back to Minnesota at this point.
16:03 --> 16:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Minnesota is not going to pay him because they totally just tore down their whole roster at the deadline and I'm going to guess why I'm going to want to play for an uncompetitive team.
16:11 --> 16:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So I would assume he'd be pretty drawn to the Mariners, at least to some extent.
16:15 --> 16:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And getting that extra year without having to move, I think, is the best case scenario of all.
16:19 --> 16:23 [SPEAKER_01]: It's if I go somewhere else, I have to take a two year deal or stay and I get three.
16:24 --> 16:27 [SPEAKER_01]: That sounds like a win to me, but it's up to Jorge Blanco.
16:27 --> 16:32 [SPEAKER_01]: He has a him and his agency have a better idea of their market than we do, right?
16:32 --> 16:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So if someone is out there willing to pay $12 million a year for three years for Blanco, it's declining that option.
16:41 --> 16:41 [SPEAKER_00]: that's right.
16:42 --> 16:44 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what he'll do.
16:44 --> 16:45 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's something fun to think about.
16:46 --> 16:54 [SPEAKER_01]: We will know by the probably by the next time we record whether or not he's going to take that six million dollars and whether or not there's something attached to it or not.
16:54 --> 16:54 [SPEAKER_01]: So we'll see.
16:55 --> 16:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we'll so also since this is our last grades episode that we're going to do.
16:59 --> 17:05 [SPEAKER_01]: We have a mailbox on Friday and then we're going to really start ramping up the offices and conversations.
17:06 --> 17:07 [SPEAKER_01]: There is some.
17:07 --> 17:11 [SPEAKER_01]: There are some fascinating conversations we need to have about some options out there.
17:11 --> 17:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I mean, we already talked a little bit about Kazuma Okamoto on the last mail bag because we got a question about it and maybe we'll dive into it even more as the offseason goes on.
17:20 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_00]: But there's a lot of guys that we've got to talk through a lot of them.
17:25 --> 17:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, not just Kyle Tucker, but even are not.
17:28 --> 17:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll spend all the time in the world on them, but then Tida is gonna say, hey, we actually need to focus on a few of the other players also available on this office, and I'll say fine, I'll digress, and we can talk elsewhere.
17:39 --> 17:46 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like we know K-Tuck is great, and he has a perfect fit in this outfit, it's like, and, right, yeah, exactly.
17:47 --> 17:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, last thing I'll say on Plock, then we can transition.
17:51 --> 17:55 [SPEAKER_00]: The $6 million option alone is almost definitely not happening.
17:55 --> 17:56 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how I'd put it.
17:57 --> 18:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I would be shocked if we find out this week that he's just gonna pick up that option and nothing else.
18:03 --> 18:08 [SPEAKER_00]: But could he make an announcement that he's gonna stay and see out a long term this week possible?
18:09 --> 18:10 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why we're talking through this.
18:10 --> 18:13 [SPEAKER_00]: The $6 million option though, alone that's not happening.
18:14 --> 18:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's get to our reliever grades, and we're going to only grade the five qualified relievers in the Mariners bullpen.
18:23 --> 18:26 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a stark difference in some of these grades.
18:26 --> 18:31 [SPEAKER_01]: You'll see it when we get there, but so let's get to the first one.
18:31 --> 18:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's let's put it like this.
18:34 --> 18:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
18:36 --> 18:42 [SPEAKER_00]: There may be some real dragon meme with the one funny looking dragon in these grades.
18:44 --> 18:47 [SPEAKER_00]: If anybody knows that meme, you know what I'm talking about.
18:49 --> 18:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully most of you listening know exactly what we're referencing.
18:52 --> 18:54 [SPEAKER_01]: But to find out, we'll have to wait, you'll have to wait until we get there.
18:55 --> 18:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's start off on the mountain top with one of the really scary-looking dragons.
18:58 --> 19:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the scariest of them all, in Andre's Munoz.
19:02 --> 19:04 [SPEAKER_01]: What's your 2025 grade for Andre's?
19:06 --> 19:09 [SPEAKER_00]: A. I mean, you could either go A or A plus, but...
19:10 --> 19:11 [SPEAKER_00]: How much can you say about the guy?
19:11 --> 19:12 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the fourth year in a row.
19:13 --> 19:16 [SPEAKER_00]: He is cemented himself as one of the best relievers in baseball.
19:16 --> 19:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And relievers are fickle to do what he's done four years in a row.
19:21 --> 19:21 [SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty amazing.
19:22 --> 19:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Where's he stacking up in Mariners history now?
19:27 --> 19:34 [SPEAKER_00]: In terms of best relievers of all time, I mean, it's on some Mount Rushmore, right with Cassady.
19:34 --> 19:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Eddie Sasaki.
19:38 --> 19:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, is since we have four years of this, I do feel like he's got a pretty solid discussion to be up there.
19:46 --> 19:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Is he the best one ever?
19:50 --> 19:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we could talk about that this off season.
19:53 --> 19:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, man.
19:54 --> 19:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Sasaki didn't have a sustained run like this and see out all the way that Muno's did.
19:58 --> 19:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Just talking through it.
19:59 --> 20:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Sasaki spent four years here too, but he wasn't, he had three really good years.
20:07 --> 20:09 [SPEAKER_00]: and then his last year was very okay.
20:10 --> 20:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I feel like there's a heavy hit the best year of all of them.
20:14 --> 20:15 [SPEAKER_01]: The 2018 year.
20:15 --> 20:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
20:18 --> 20:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Mooney's 2022 season.
20:20 --> 20:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd say argued well, you have the JJ puts here, so the 07 JJ puts up there, but none of the marvers haven't had relievers accumulate this much value before.
20:34 --> 20:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Not really.
20:35 --> 20:36 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like it's Eddie Caz and Mooney.
20:37 --> 20:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Am I forgetting anybody?
20:38 --> 20:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and even Eddie had one big year.
20:41 --> 20:47 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess if you count as rookie year where he came
20:48 --> 20:58 [SPEAKER_01]: not like moody not four years in a row let's say to say maybe after next year he will be number one maybe it will be an indisputable number one maybe already is indisputable number one
20:58 --> 21:00 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a good question.
21:00 --> 21:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Leave us a comment.
21:00 --> 21:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Let us know of Mooney's the greatest reliever and mayor's history right now.
21:04 --> 21:09 [SPEAKER_01]: On and not the best singular season, we're talking about collectively the best.
21:10 --> 21:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I'll tell ya, what he's done these four years has been incredible, and every year it seems like he finds something sort of new about himself.
21:19 --> 21:19 [SPEAKER_01]: really.
21:21 --> 21:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And this year he found the run prevention and the home run suppression of it all.
21:26 --> 21:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Like he was still great striking guys out.
21:29 --> 21:33 [SPEAKER_01]: He was still not great at controlling the strike zone at times.
21:33 --> 21:35 [SPEAKER_01]: He walked, you know, a lot of guys.
21:36 --> 21:38 [SPEAKER_01]: But the expected numbers across the board were fantastic.
21:38 --> 21:40 [SPEAKER_01]: The best he's ever had in his career.
21:41 --> 21:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And the wins above replacement is tied for career high with
21:47 --> 21:50 [SPEAKER_01]: and he did it in I think roughly as many annings.
21:51 --> 21:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So when when you chalk that out for him it gets hard to get any better.
21:57 --> 22:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I gave him an A. I think A plus reserved for like best in baseball.
22:03 --> 22:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Especially for Mooney because Mooney's also shown us a better version of himself that 2022 season.
22:08 --> 22:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of a standard I hold that to.
22:10 --> 22:16 [SPEAKER_00]: What he did with his slide are in 2022 was the best
22:17 --> 22:18 [SPEAKER_00]: will he ever get back to that?
22:19 --> 22:30 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know, but even if he doesn't, he is still been, again, arguably the best Mariners reliever ever, and a top 10 reliever in baseball each of the last four years.
22:30 --> 22:40 [SPEAKER_00]: What he's done, as you talk about the home run suppression, he gave up to all year, and one of those was a total garbage time home run that meant nothing.
22:40 --> 22:47 [SPEAKER_00]: The only meaningful home run he gave up all season was over the summer in that twins game.
22:49 --> 22:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Actually that so summer that was like may.
22:51 --> 22:55 [SPEAKER_00]: That was the only meaningful home run he gave up all season.
22:56 --> 22:58 [SPEAKER_00]: He did not let the ball leave the ballpark.
22:59 --> 23:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the key to being a good reliever.
23:02 --> 23:09 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not gonna get, you're not gonna give up crooked innings for the most part if you have the stuff like Andre's Muneostas if you don't give up home runs.
23:10 --> 23:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So, home runs with the ultimate cheat code when it comes to beating good relievers and making their numbers look bad because you can score three runs with one swing.
23:17 --> 23:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Muneo is making it this year if you wanted to score against Simia to get three hits in a row.
23:21 --> 23:23 [SPEAKER_01]: To which I say, good luck.
23:23 --> 23:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot harder than it sounds.
23:26 --> 23:27 [SPEAKER_01]: So you had all that with him.
23:27 --> 23:29 [SPEAKER_01]: He got a lot of ground balls this year as well.
23:29 --> 23:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And then just, you know, overall, you saw the progression of all of his pitches.
23:33 --> 23:36 [SPEAKER_01]: The mix was mostly the same for him.
23:37 --> 23:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Like he's really transformed into, not just to strike out pitcher.
23:41 --> 23:46 [SPEAKER_01]: He's trying to also be a ground ball pitcher as well, which works out in the home run suppression department.
23:46 --> 23:48 [SPEAKER_01]: My biggest takeaway for him.
23:48 --> 23:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was wondering if you thought you could quantify this.
23:53 --> 23:57 [SPEAKER_01]: how much of a success this year was because he only had to worry about pitching in one inning.
23:59 --> 24:00 [SPEAKER_00]: He has talked about he likes that better.
24:01 --> 24:06 [SPEAKER_00]: He has talked about he's more comfortable in that role when he knows exactly what it's going to be.
24:07 --> 24:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So sure, there could be something there to the fact that
24:12 --> 24:21 [SPEAKER_00]: He has a set routine and is mentally set in his own head for what is what his role is going to be every night.
24:22 --> 24:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that plays a factor.
24:23 --> 24:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, that doesn't change the fact that he should have been in over Edward Bizarre when game 7 of the games.
24:28 --> 24:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that doesn't change because in the playoffs, that stuff all goes out the window.
24:32 --> 24:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, that's not an Andre's moon, he'll pitch when he gets told to pitch.
24:36 --> 24:42 [SPEAKER_00]: That is a decision-making thing, which means he touched on once or twice.
24:42 --> 24:44 [SPEAKER_00]: for what he did in the regular season?
24:44 --> 24:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that that may have helped him.
24:46 --> 24:50 [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that he had a set role, and he was able to just kind of run with it all year.
24:51 --> 24:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
24:53 --> 24:57 [SPEAKER_01]: If you guys want the numbers in your curious, like this is not how it looked under Scott's service.
24:57 --> 25:02 [SPEAKER_01]: In 2024, Mooney pitched more than an ining 11 times in the regular season.
25:03 --> 25:10 [SPEAKER_01]: This season, one time, all year, he pitched more than an ining.
25:11 --> 25:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know what, broke down, how it broke down by appearances, he appeared in the eighth inning twice in the ninth inning, 55 times, extra innings eight.
25:21 --> 25:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually think the decreased usage in the regular season, it hangs wise, pitch count wise, probably had more to do with it than just throwing the ninth inning.
25:31 --> 25:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I do think having, I do think having the set routine helped them, but I think
25:41 --> 25:42 [SPEAKER_00]: is the bigger deal there.
25:43 --> 25:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's shown fatigue over the course of his career when it gets to August and September, especially last year, his numbers were horrendous down the stretch or average to horrendous.
25:54 --> 25:57 [SPEAKER_01]: This year, it was like he didn't miss beat.
25:57 --> 25:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And it did really show.
26:00 --> 26:04 [SPEAKER_00]: look, I was always a big fan of the way Scott service managed his bullpen for the most part.
26:05 --> 26:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Not that it was always perfect, but there was very sound process behind how he would use his guys and make decisions and pull levers.
26:14 --> 26:22 [SPEAKER_00]: But I will say, I think the one thing about Scott is even though he'd usually push the right buttons and make the right sound process.
26:23 --> 26:25 [SPEAKER_00]: He would overwork those guys sometimes.
26:25 --> 26:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Matt Brash really got overworked in 23.
26:27 --> 26:28 [SPEAKER_00]: It led the Tommy John.
26:28 --> 26:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Andre's Munoz.
26:29 --> 26:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I think you could tell by 24 he was really getting overworked because he started to have the air come out of the balloon a little bit in August and September last year.
26:39 --> 26:42 [SPEAKER_00]: But all that being said, I think that,
26:44 --> 26:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I, like if it were up to me, I would still throw guys in different spots and use your best reliever when the leverage guys come up in the order.
26:52 --> 26:58 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the decrease pitch count plan for Munoz this year helped him and it helped them stay fresh throughout more of the year.
27:00 --> 27:08 [SPEAKER_01]: The one, the only negative I could really take for Munoz the season is his command does tend to get his been getting worse.
27:09 --> 27:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I wonder if that's in the Matt Brash bucket.
27:12 --> 27:16 [SPEAKER_00]: You know how we've talked about how Brash to stuff is so nasty that you can't always control where it's going.
27:16 --> 27:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Moonios has gotten to the point where his stuff's gotten so nasty, that it has a little bit of that effect, too.
27:21 --> 27:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that two seamer runs.
27:24 --> 27:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
27:24 --> 27:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes that's a hard thing to command.
27:26 --> 27:28 [SPEAKER_00]: His slider has so much movement.
27:28 --> 27:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's hard to pinpoint.
27:31 --> 27:34 [SPEAKER_00]: That change up of his that he's now added, which he didn't throw that much.
27:35 --> 27:37 [SPEAKER_00]: But he even talked to us about this and spring training with his change up.
27:38 --> 27:44 [SPEAKER_00]: He said, look, it moves a lot, which is really awesome, but it's not always the easiest pitch to control.
27:45 --> 27:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So with that, when you have stuff that's that ridiculous, sometimes that does lead to use sacrificing a little bit of command, which is why you've seen Moon News was walk right up a little bit over the last couple of years and while he'll throw a few more balls than he used to in 22.
27:59 --> 28:00 [SPEAKER_00]: But,
28:00 --> 28:05 [SPEAKER_00]: We're nitpicking here when you are highlighting a season of a guy with a 170 R.A.
28:07 --> 28:13 [SPEAKER_01]: He just wasn't always pitching ahead in the count and that, especially in the postseason, would bug me though.
28:13 --> 28:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, he wasn't someone you were going to get mad at in the postseason, but.
28:17 --> 28:41 [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes he would struggle throwing strikes and I think in terms of grading on sort of this department I went to look at his stuff plus which by the way I didn't I don't think this with the eye test but however fan graphs grades it and how they look at it his stuff plus does deteriorated three years in a row but I don't know if it seemed like it's you but that's what fan graphs says.
28:41 --> 28:51 [SPEAKER_01]: They have his location plus, which is overall how well he throws good pitches at an 87, many as 13% below average.
28:52 --> 28:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes I guess if the stuff moves that much that's how it's going to be, but it did not create out very well.
28:59 --> 29:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder if any of the stuff plus going down has anything to do with the fact that
29:05 --> 29:22 [SPEAKER_00]: he's throwing more fastballs whenever before and it's hard to great out well on fastball stuff plus then it is on a lot of the breaking balls because now the moon knows has this two steamer he is throwing his four seamer and two seamer combined this year about fifty percent of the time
29:24 --> 29:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It's possible, but if you look at the individual grades on those pitches, let me just tell you about his slider from, from 2022 to 2025 and 2022 it was 150, 2025 it's, 1919.
29:43 --> 29:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so then yeah, it's the theory of the dream bit of a drop and I'd say some of the results have showed that he's not had quite the same strikeout So still really still very elite, but not quite where it was, but I think we've said this all three years We've handed out grades for Andre's moonios talking about this.
29:59 --> 30:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just honestly just yearning for that season back I so badly want to watch that version of moonios again because he was so dominant Yeah, but
30:09 --> 30:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it, can we really get that worked up about it?
30:12 --> 30:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Look at what he just did this year.
30:13 --> 30:16 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, but I always reminisce.
30:18 --> 30:24 [SPEAKER_00]: It's funny, the actual numbers that are spit out on the results of the slider rather than the actual stuff or a little closer to 22 than you might think.
30:25 --> 30:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Opponents actually had a lower batting average and a lower slug against the slider this year in 25 than they did in 22.
30:33 --> 30:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so the actual stuff of it was a lot nastier.
30:36 --> 30:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Eat it nerds.
30:38 --> 30:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, eat it nerds.
30:40 --> 30:42 [SPEAKER_00]: War nerds, so I can't really say that.
30:43 --> 30:47 [SPEAKER_00]: The stuff of it was better three years ago, but the results, people aren't getting hits of it.
30:49 --> 30:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Before we get to our next relief allow, would you like to read that?
30:53 --> 30:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I would.
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31:48 --> 31:50 [SPEAKER_00]: What is your grade for Matt Brash?
31:52 --> 31:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Another A.
31:52 --> 31:58 [SPEAKER_00]: If you had told anybody at the start of this season,
31:58 --> 32:01 [SPEAKER_00]: that Matt Brash was going to return from Tommy John surgery.
32:01 --> 32:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Make over 50 appearances.
32:03 --> 32:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Get out of the ear fully healthy and have an ERA sub 2-5.
32:06 --> 32:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Are you taking that because I am.
32:12 --> 32:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but we almost got a new Matt Brash.
32:15 --> 32:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Like this is a totally different version of Matt Brash than what we saw pre-entry.
32:19 --> 32:22 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it's like he walked at the end of 2023.
32:23 --> 32:27 [SPEAKER_01]: He walks into this portal and outspits a different Matt Brash.
32:29 --> 32:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just not the same guy.
32:30 --> 32:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Like this is not the 100 mile an hour fastball
32:36 --> 32:38 [SPEAKER_01]: overpowering sweeper, Matt Brash.
32:39 --> 32:44 [SPEAKER_01]: The sweeper is still really good, but everything else, what we saw from Matt Brash was here is totally different.
32:45 --> 32:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it is almost a different reliever.
32:48 --> 32:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, to be fair, in his first two big league seasons, when he was throwing that forcing fastball that would run up toward 100, got hit pretty hard.
32:57 --> 33:00 [SPEAKER_00]: For as hard as it was thrown, it was pretty straight, didn't have a ton of movement.
33:00 --> 33:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think Matt Brash and the Mariners clearly picked up on that.
33:04 --> 33:06 [SPEAKER_00]: because he altered things a little bit in 25.
33:07 --> 33:09 [SPEAKER_00]: He only threw his forcing fastball about 5% of the time.
33:09 --> 33:14 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a lot different than the near 35% he was throwing at the first couple seasons.
33:14 --> 33:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Now he's throwing that forcing fastball a lot less.
33:17 --> 33:19 [SPEAKER_00]: He's added a two-seamer, he's added a change app.
33:19 --> 33:20 [SPEAKER_00]: He just does more now.
33:21 --> 33:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think part of the reason for that is because his Velo was down.
33:27 --> 33:30 [SPEAKER_01]: If he slows down this year, almost two and a half miles an hour.
33:31 --> 33:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he wasn't throwing the foreseemers, so it makes sense.
33:33 --> 33:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, no, that's his foreseem velocity was down, two and a half miles an hour.
33:37 --> 33:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Which isn't totally unexpected coming off Tommy John, but again, exactly, so he had to adapt.
33:42 --> 33:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And he showed us he's adaptable.
33:44 --> 33:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Which might have been for the best, because again, even pre-tommy John, when he was throwing that foreseemer a lot, got hit hard.
33:51 --> 33:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's the breakdown by pitch.
33:53 --> 34:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Year to year, pre-engineer in 2023, brush was at 51% slider, 33% fastball, 8% curveball and a through one.
34:04 --> 34:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Change up, one single change up.
34:07 --> 34:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Post-engineer this year, 60% slider, 22% sinker, 12% change up.
34:15 --> 34:18 [SPEAKER_01]: 5% fastball, 1% curveball.
34:18 --> 34:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Stever guy, he's up, he's, his pitchers are, he's kind of trying to be Andre's Muno, so where everything is just moving in every direction.
34:27 --> 34:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's what he's thinking.
34:29 --> 34:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Andre's Muno's now has two arm side breaking pitches and one glove slide breaking pitch.
34:34 --> 34:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Matt Brash essentially has the same thing now.
34:38 --> 34:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I would like to see another full healthy season of him throwing it to say this 1 percent works for him, but overall it was still really good.
34:50 --> 34:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I just know there's Matt, I know Matt Brash is asking up to strike out 35 percent of batters and he didn't do that this year, but that's my nitpick.
34:58 --> 35:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So like a totally healthy Matt Brash, I think can go out there and achieve that.
35:03 --> 35:04 [SPEAKER_00]: which we might see in 2026.
35:04 --> 35:13 [SPEAKER_00]: But again, coming off at Tommy John, you knew there was gonna be some adjustment period, swinging back into what was nearly a full season of big league work.
35:14 --> 35:20 [SPEAKER_00]: But you're right, with another full off season, be in healthy now, a full spring training, expected to break camp on time next year.
35:20 --> 35:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, can you combine it all together and get back to the high strikeout rate, but also with the new and improved pitch arsenal?
35:28 --> 35:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
35:29 --> 35:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I just mean I think a big reason he gets this A is not just the overall results, but for coming back from Tommy John to do what he did.
35:38 --> 35:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Really impressive.
35:40 --> 35:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Now to say there wasn't some shaky outings this year, he would have stretches just like a lot of relievers do, where he had a couple tough outings in a row and he would get hit and he would give up some walks.
35:50 --> 35:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I think a big thing with Matt Brash this year is when he would get behind to the first bat or early.
35:57 --> 35:59 [SPEAKER_00]: That's when things would often go sideways for an outing.
36:00 --> 36:05 [SPEAKER_00]: You could often tell in the first batter, this year, if Rash was going to have a good outing or not.
36:05 --> 36:11 [SPEAKER_00]: When he would walk the first batter on four or five pitches and stuff wasn't there, sometimes that we continue that way throughout his outing.
36:12 --> 36:15 [SPEAKER_00]: If he was on in the first batter, usually went much smoother.
36:15 --> 36:18 [SPEAKER_00]: But to do what he did coming off of Tommy John this year, really impressive.
36:19 --> 36:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Dig give up more homers this year than you've ever given up on a rate basis.
36:24 --> 36:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember what I was mentioning, Moonio's a slider.
36:26 --> 36:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought it took a step back.
36:27 --> 36:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking of Matt Brash's slider.
36:28 --> 36:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Matt Brash had a 15% drop off in Whiff rate on his pitch, which we can attribute to the injury to coming back, not throwing us hard, not having as sharp stuff.
36:40 --> 36:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's something I'm looking for from Matt Brash going into next season to see it get back up to the level.
36:45 --> 36:47 [SPEAKER_01]: It was that pre-entry.
36:47 --> 36:48 [SPEAKER_01]: But otherwise,
36:49 --> 36:56 [SPEAKER_01]: You have a 247-ERA, three-pitch reliever, four-pitch reliever.
36:57 --> 36:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You should have great self-pretty well.
36:58 --> 36:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's really good.
37:00 --> 37:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Good for Matt Brash.
37:01 --> 37:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Gabe Spire, what's your grade?
37:04 --> 37:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Another guy that had to battle injuries last year, almost essentially had a lost season after April and 24.
37:11 --> 37:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Come back and do what he did in 25.
37:12 --> 37:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Another A.
37:16 --> 37:42 [SPEAKER_01]: gives i i gave him an a plus because he is the best lefty reliever well maybe one of two him in a world is chappin can throw hater in there too but yeah it's a short list man i i love going back to to gays twenty twenty three where it was just this wonderful combination of ground ball strike outs and lack of walks from him it's it's honestly the perfect relief combination
37:44 --> 38:02 [SPEAKER_01]: he argued we out did that this past year mm-hmm strikeout minus walk rate is the stat that i think is very helpful for evaluating pitchers you strike a lot of guys out and not walk a lot of matters well that's exactly what gives fire did thirty three percent strikeout rate four and a half percent walk rate
38:02 --> 38:09 [SPEAKER_01]: The only relievers in baseball who had a higher, who had a bigger difference and strikeout rate to walk rate than Gabe's fire were.
38:09 --> 38:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Mason Miller, a world of Chapman, Cole Riggins, and Edwin Diaz.
38:14 --> 38:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Those guys collectively, if you put them out on the open market at Gabe's fire's age, would collect north of $20 million a year in salary.
38:23 --> 38:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Gabe's gonna make less than two next year.
38:28 --> 38:29 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a good deal.
38:30 --> 38:30 [SPEAKER_00]: It's funny.
38:31 --> 38:39 [SPEAKER_00]: We talk about how the Mariners finding these bullpen arms off the street and turning them into stars has happened a little bit less over the last couple years.
38:39 --> 38:41 [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't really have that guy in 24.
38:41 --> 38:44 [SPEAKER_00]: They did this year and we'll get to them next.
38:44 --> 38:54 [SPEAKER_00]: But to find the gem that they found and gave Spire in 23 and to have it carry over now, as long as it has, just awesome.
38:55 --> 39:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't even like a one-off year because we've seen that for some of these bullpen types, the manners of developed.
39:00 --> 39:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Like Drew Steckenrider was a one-and-done Justin Topa breaks my heart.
39:04 --> 39:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It probably was because of injury, but he had the one really good year in 2023 hasn't quite gotten back to that at all.
39:13 --> 39:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's McMurters traded him and he's in Justin's struggle to say healthy with the twins.
39:19 --> 39:24 [SPEAKER_00]: But he had a beautiful, he had a full healthy year this year, but it wasn't as good.
39:24 --> 39:25 [SPEAKER_00]: wasn't as good.
39:25 --> 39:30 [SPEAKER_00]: He was he was he was he was solid like his fifth was about three it was 304 to be exact.
39:30 --> 39:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So ERA was a little inflated.
39:32 --> 39:32 [SPEAKER_00]: You're right.
39:32 --> 39:35 [SPEAKER_00]: It was not the same as 23 to
39:35 --> 39:37 [SPEAKER_00]: just highlight your point, wasn't like Gabe's buyer.
39:38 --> 39:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And we had full faith in Gabe, but there was no guarantee he was going to step up this year and he was going to dominate.
39:44 --> 39:54 [SPEAKER_01]: But he got healthy in the off season, ramped back up and said, I'm making an emphasis to throw as hard as I can again, and man, I mean, it worked out to the best of his ability.
39:54 --> 40:21 [SPEAKER_01]: to come back this year to get his fastball velocity back to where it was in 23 and show that he's not a one off and he's here to stay and he's here to dominate and he's what every team wants in their bullpen a high leverage high strike out lefty then those don't just don't grow on trees and the mariners have one in Gabe's fire and that's why he gets an A plus because he is one of only a handful of guys in major league baseball that does what he does different than a writing
40:21 --> 40:22 [SPEAKER_00]: very different.
40:22 --> 40:37 [SPEAKER_00]: When you're punching out batters to rank yourself in the 96th percentile of the league, and strike out right, 98th percentile of the league and chase rate, which is basically back to what he did in 23, dominance.
40:37 --> 40:40 [SPEAKER_00]: You're paying that guy barely over the league minimum.
40:40 --> 40:41 [SPEAKER_00]: That is crazy.
40:41 --> 40:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And thinking about this for this year too, crazy number it didn't even realize.
40:45 --> 40:48 [SPEAKER_01]: His war is almost triple what it was in 23.
40:51 --> 40:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a result to just strike him more guys out.
40:54 --> 40:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, a 29% strike, I'll read that here.
40:57 --> 40:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he did, but it was even higher in 25.
41:00 --> 41:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I know shot our guy gave this again, the stuff plus one up as well, the pulled fly balls are also like a really bad thing for relievers to allow because that you'll allow home runs if you give up a lot of pull fly balls.
41:14 --> 41:20 [SPEAKER_01]: He went from one of the worst last year in all baseball, the one of the best this year and it's great.
41:20 --> 41:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Very happy for Gabe and looking forward to him having another solidified spot in this in this bullpen next year.
41:26 --> 41:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So I
41:27 --> 41:39 [SPEAKER_01]: But he did, I guess, change a little bit like he, he, his thinker's more sinker and 23, he's a little more fastball in, uh, 25.
41:40 --> 41:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Fastball was a little bit more of his emphasis pitch.
41:45 --> 41:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Run value wise.
41:45 --> 41:47 [SPEAKER_00]: This was the best year for his sinker, though.
41:48 --> 41:50 [SPEAKER_00]: That was where I ran into problems last year.
41:50 --> 41:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, most of that's attributed to injury.
41:52 --> 41:56 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think a really, really, really got crushed last year just by the numbers.
41:56 --> 41:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And again,
41:57 --> 41:58 [SPEAKER_00]: probably just wasn't healthy.
41:59 --> 42:02 [SPEAKER_00]: But this year by run value, sinker grated out really well.
42:02 --> 42:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Tussie was really good.
42:03 --> 42:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So, it's funny, I think injuries are the only thing that really prevented spire from having a really good year last year too because through April, he was one of baseball's best relievers.
42:14 --> 42:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I think the injury got to him because that's when he missed time with the shoulder and he never got back fully right, different story this year.
42:21 --> 42:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
42:21 --> 42:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And they're gonna lead on him again, 26 pretty heavily because they're gonna need him.
42:26 --> 42:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Next reliever will grade, the infamous Edward Bazardo, your grade, gets an A. Wow, the home run does not detract.
42:41 --> 42:43 [SPEAKER_00]: No, because he was told to pitch in that situation.
42:44 --> 42:46 [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't get a say, the decision gets an F for that.
42:48 --> 42:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Edward Bazardo, however, gets an A for the season.
42:52 --> 42:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I gave him a minus just because of the result, but the regular season grade was another A.
42:58 --> 43:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you're going to take him down a full plus or minus for that.
43:03 --> 43:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
43:04 --> 43:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Because the pitch was bad.
43:05 --> 43:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a bad pitch, but again, he never should have been in there.
43:09 --> 43:13 [SPEAKER_00]: He could have thrown a better pitch.
43:14 --> 43:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Literally the most
43:16 --> 43:21 [SPEAKER_01]: literally the most impactful pitch thrown in Mariner's history.
43:21 --> 43:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Not in a good way.
43:25 --> 43:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Shouldn't have been.
43:26 --> 43:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
43:27 --> 43:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
43:27 --> 43:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I know.
43:28 --> 43:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I know.
43:28 --> 43:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're talking again.
43:30 --> 43:33 [SPEAKER_00]: We said this on a show about a week ago.
43:34 --> 43:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll just say it again.
43:34 --> 43:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Fangraph gave Dan Wilson an F for his playout bullpen management.
43:39 --> 43:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of that is to do with Bazaar though.
43:42 --> 43:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not the whole reason.
43:43 --> 43:45 [SPEAKER_00]: There was plenty of
43:45 --> 43:50 [SPEAKER_00]: field, but yeah, he got an F. That's on the manager.
43:50 --> 43:51 [SPEAKER_00]: It's on the coaching staff.
43:51 --> 43:52 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not unbizarre though.
43:53 --> 43:56 [SPEAKER_01]: If it was completely unbizarre, we would be down at a B plus, but he's not.
43:56 --> 43:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So A minus.
43:57 --> 43:58 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, fine.
43:58 --> 44:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll also say a minus because the peripherals were not as good as they were last year.
44:02 --> 44:03 [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny.
44:04 --> 44:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, at the end of last year, we're talking about Edward Bizarre.
44:07 --> 44:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, wow, he's like a savant darling, but the raw stats don't look as good.
44:12 --> 44:15 [SPEAKER_01]: This year, the swamp stats are good.
44:15 --> 44:17 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not as good as they were last year.
44:17 --> 44:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Like last year, over 30% strikeout rate, his walk rate, his load was lower, his expected numbers were all way lower than they are right now, but it was like this year that was
44:28 --> 44:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and that's what gets into a little bit of an uncomfortable conversation here, and maybe a real conversation that'll lead into the offseason more about why the Mariners need to go get some more bullpen arms at least one real one.
44:38 --> 44:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Is Edward Bazarto gonna be a guy that's a little one and done that had one big year.
44:55 --> 44:59 [SPEAKER_00]: It's repeatable, other than he didn't give up a lot of hard hit baseballs, which is the good news.
44:59 --> 45:05 [SPEAKER_00]: But doesn't get chase, doesn't get swing and miss, not really a ground ball pitcher.
45:05 --> 45:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was also used a lot.
45:08 --> 45:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he threw so many times over the course of the year.
45:13 --> 45:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And you factor in all that.
45:16 --> 45:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I just wonder how that plays out in 2026.
45:18 --> 45:22 [SPEAKER_01]: But combos not good.
45:23 --> 45:42 [SPEAKER_01]: The first thing you have to think about is injury because when guys get used that much, especially when they're used as much as used in October and high pressure play out baseball, that's the first question that comes to mind, and like the second question that comes to mind, like he's just got to have a strike, like if you're a reliever and you don't have a strike out pitching, you're not a ground ball reliever.
45:44 --> 45:45 [SPEAKER_01]: How are you getting out?
45:46 --> 45:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but the run value you want is two best pitches are pretty nuts.
45:51 --> 45:53 [SPEAKER_00]: it's a weird combo.
45:53 --> 45:59 [SPEAKER_00]: So he gave up a batting average way under 200 against both the sinker and the slider, which is two pitches.
46:00 --> 46:07 [SPEAKER_00]: But then the actual peripherals say while the results were good in 25, it doesn't scream repeat in 26.
46:08 --> 46:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe not a two five two ERA repeat.
46:12 --> 46:14 [SPEAKER_01]: He could be a solid reliever.
46:14 --> 46:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, he could be more what I thought he was going to be for the most part when he started to pitch while this year.
46:19 --> 46:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Because it took me till basically the end of the regular season to say, all right, yeah, you can throw him in leverage.
46:26 --> 46:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Because almost all year I said, look, was Artists throwing well, credit to him.
46:31 --> 46:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't think he was going to be much of anything heading into 25.
46:33 --> 46:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I was wrong.
46:34 --> 46:37 [SPEAKER_00]: But I said with all that a lot, don't throw him in leverage.
46:38 --> 46:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I was wrong about that because they needed them in leverage in the postseason and other than in a game seven where he never should have been in that game.
46:44 --> 46:46 [SPEAKER_00]: He really thrived.
46:46 --> 46:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So you're right, maybe next year he's more of the original role I thought he was going to be.
46:50 --> 46:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he'll be a guy with an ERA in the threes.
46:53 --> 46:58 [SPEAKER_00]: He can throw in lower leverage and play a role, but you still need to go get another dominant bullpen arm this winter.
46:58 --> 47:09 [SPEAKER_01]: He can still be exactly what Dan Wilson called him like a swing man or like the pivot man early in a game if you're starters struggling in the fifth or sixth thing and you need him to come in there and pitch.
47:10 --> 47:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's totally fine for him.
47:11 --> 47:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you can you can continue that for him.
47:15 --> 47:25 [SPEAKER_01]: There's just, like, unless there's more growth, which there of course could be some more growth, projecting this further is a little bit more difficult for him because there's a bit of an unknown.
47:26 --> 47:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we'll go back to last season, right?
47:28 --> 47:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Where the results are bad, we had an expected era of two four.
47:31 --> 47:37 [SPEAKER_01]: This year, it's expected era is like three, three, despite the fact is regular era is two, five.
47:38 --> 47:39 [SPEAKER_01]: That's like, what are we getting?
47:39 --> 47:39 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know.
47:40 --> 47:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, even the predictive stats are struggling to predict this guy as well.
47:45 --> 47:54 [SPEAKER_01]: But for the season, that he just pitched, he was great, and he had a case to be the Mariners post-season hero if not for one of the Mariners post-season heroes.
47:54 --> 47:56 [SPEAKER_01]: If he didn't throw that fucking pitch to George Springer.
47:58 --> 48:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, never should have been in the game.
48:01 --> 48:04 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, he shouldn't.
48:04 --> 48:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't think I have anything else on him.
48:05 --> 48:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, it's an interesting case to look at for the Mariners ballpen.
48:10 --> 48:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
48:10 --> 48:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Now the guy I think we're most excited to talk about, the final qualified Mariners reliever from the 20-25 season.
48:18 --> 48:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Lyle, can you give me your grade?
48:22 --> 48:24 [SPEAKER_01]: For Carlos Vargas.
48:27 --> 48:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he gets a D. See the like heel turn of grades here?
48:33 --> 48:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember I said four A's in a row.
48:38 --> 48:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we said there was going to be a funny looking dragon on this grade scale.
48:44 --> 49:04 [SPEAKER_01]: See, Lyle said D. Carlos Vargas gets an F for me and I'm not just holding some grudge for Carlos Vargas because he's difficult to watch and he doesn't throw enough strikes and he doesn't strike guys out and overall it's just, it makes you age watching Carlos Vargas on the mound.
49:05 --> 49:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I have one stat, one stat, I need to read it, read to you for Carlos Vargas.
49:11 --> 49:16 [SPEAKER_01]: The job of any player in baseball while just win games and to accumulate value, is not.
49:18 --> 49:21 [SPEAKER_00]: It isn't for a reliever, it's to get out for any pitchers, to get out.
49:23 --> 49:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Carlos Vargas threw over 70 innings this year, among every pitcher in baseball to
49:32 --> 49:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Carlos Forgas was the least valuable in all of baseball.
49:40 --> 49:40 [SPEAKER_01]: The least.
49:42 --> 49:48 [SPEAKER_01]: That really doesn't say F. I don't know what does some of you don't believe war fine.
49:48 --> 49:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me my eyes are lying.
49:50 --> 49:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think they are.
49:54 --> 49:58 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good thing he threw in so many important games this year.
49:58 --> 50:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I got to say he threw 15 more innings than Gabe Spire and Andre's Munoz.
50:04 --> 50:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
50:05 --> 50:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Let me let me sit correctly.
50:07 --> 50:08 [SPEAKER_01]: That was not right.
50:08 --> 50:12 [SPEAKER_01]: He threw 15 more innings than Andre's Munoz and Gabe Spire through this year.
50:12 --> 50:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what you said.
50:14 --> 50:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I thought I said games.
50:15 --> 50:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
50:16 --> 50:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Oops.
50:17 --> 50:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Either way.
50:19 --> 50:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I
50:21 --> 50:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, doesn't a lot of that go back to the decision making?
50:26 --> 50:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, let me clarify myself even further.
50:33 --> 50:37 [SPEAKER_01]: So you heard I gave Carlos Vargas an F. Let me expand on that a little bit more.
50:38 --> 50:43 [SPEAKER_01]: This is not just a Carlos Vargas F. This is an organizational F.
50:46 --> 50:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So the reason I gave him a D and not something lower is because look, I think the two of us were pretty adamant about this this year and we were not alone by any stretch to say that he was a very difficult watch.
50:58 --> 51:03 [SPEAKER_00]: By the way, we don't have any facts or certainty behind this, but if you're just going off of watching the games,
51:03 --> 51:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think his own catcher really likes catching him.
51:06 --> 51:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Dude you can see Cow when he's back there and he catches Vargas He looks like he wants no part of catching his games because he's he's new collusion out there throwing balls all over the place They're skipping to the backstop.
51:19 --> 51:21 [SPEAKER_00]: They're hitting off his arm off his knee.
51:21 --> 51:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's Again, that's pure speculation, but I get the sense.
51:27 --> 51:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Cow doesn't love catching Carlos Vargas anyway
51:32 --> 51:41 [SPEAKER_00]: When you look at what Vargas did this year, I mean, there are some things that stood out that were positive, which is why I tried to give them something other than the lowest possible grade.
51:41 --> 51:46 [SPEAKER_00]: He had one pitch at least great out well by run value in his two-seamer.
51:46 --> 51:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Now he gave up a decent batting average against it, which again goes back to a lack of getting out.
51:50 --> 51:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So he was still giving up a 282 batting average against the best pitch, which is not great.
51:56 --> 51:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So, again, I'm trying it here.
51:58 --> 51:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying here.
52:00 --> 52:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a thing of the two of the two people on this podcast vouching for Carlos Vargas, it's you.
52:05 --> 52:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I, I go off on enough tangent about enough things.
52:08 --> 52:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to use some level.
52:10 --> 52:11 [SPEAKER_01]: We need to balance it out a little bit.
52:11 --> 52:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I see it.
52:12 --> 52:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I see it.
52:12 --> 52:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
52:13 --> 52:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Meanwhile, part of the other organization, F-Lyle, was the fact he was a deployed in high-level situations earlier the year.
52:20 --> 52:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that I guess he was on the roster earlier, which I guess, but that more comes down to the fact the Mariners had after their main four guys, a lot of middleing bullpen arms.
52:30 --> 52:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So,
52:32 --> 52:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Great, but it didn't make watching Carlos Vargas any easier knowing that like it's like, oh, he's Middling to bad the rest of these guys are all middleing to bad, but he throws a hundred Maybe they should have given Will Klein a shot How'd he do in the world series terribly didn't you hear?
52:55 --> 53:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, the other part of the Vargas equation here is if you want to look to things for him to build off in 2026, is there some world where he could break out next year?
53:08 --> 53:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, I'm not putting a very high stake into it, but it's just when you when you throw 100 and you're giving up a ground ball rate that's in the 95th percentile league.
53:19 --> 53:23 [SPEAKER_00]: That is something that's pretty good when you're giving up a hard hit rate.
53:24 --> 53:29 [SPEAKER_00]: that isn't very high, that's it ranked in the 87th percentile.
53:29 --> 53:30 [SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty good.
53:31 --> 53:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is why I didn't give him a full on F along with the fact I guess his actual earned run average was still under three.
53:37 --> 53:39 [SPEAKER_00]: This is not me saying he had a good season.
53:39 --> 53:54 [SPEAKER_00]: This is just me highlighting why I didn't give him a straight F. So there are a few things that you could look at for him and say maybe something clicks in 26 just with the stuff and the lack of hard hit
53:54 --> 53:59 [SPEAKER_00]: However, I will say what we said a million times this year, which is with drove us the craziest.
54:00 --> 54:06 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you throw a hundred and strike out less than six batters per nine innings, which for a reliever is awful?
54:08 --> 54:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Who breaks out first?
54:09 --> 54:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Gregory Santos or Carlos Vargas?
54:16 --> 54:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Gregory Santos would be very already broke out.
54:18 --> 54:22 [SPEAKER_01]: It was just in Chicago.
54:24 --> 54:40 [SPEAKER_01]: two seasons ago, but share, and when I vividly remember when the Mariners acquired Carlos Vargas, and you see some of his numbers, it's like, all the Mariners will put their finishing touches on him and he'll break out and he'll be similar to Andre's Minus.
54:42 --> 54:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was about two years ago.
54:45 --> 54:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that man did not throw a single pitch in the big leagues in 24.
54:48 --> 54:53 [SPEAKER_00]: No, and he wasn't particularly good in Tacoma, because
54:53 --> 54:55 [SPEAKER_00]: couldn't get guys out.
54:56 --> 55:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, remember how Flavor gas did everybody was when all the leekings came out when people were piecing together what the roster was going to look like in spring training when they saw legumina get option at the end of March and everybody's like Carlos Vargas is going to make the roster.
55:12 --> 55:16 [SPEAKER_00]: The only reason he was on this roster in the first place is because otherwise they had to cut him.
55:16 --> 55:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I know and there's still a part of me that believes they did not want to just fully admit to feet on the genome trade and they were trying to get anything out of them.
55:26 --> 55:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And I figured he was going to be on the roster a couple weeks and then he stayed on the roster all year.
55:30 --> 55:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think front offices are going to evaluate wins and losses by war necessarily.
55:38 --> 55:47 [SPEAKER_01]: But again, if we're going to just use it as a cursory...cursory...potential measuring stick, one of many measuring sticks.
55:49 --> 55:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Literally no one did it worse.
55:54 --> 55:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And watching the games this year, I'd have to agree.
55:57 --> 55:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll be back it up.
55:59 --> 56:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, going into 2026, Carlos Vargas needs to enter the year as the absolute last guy in the bullpen used in nothing but mop up duty, and until he proves otherwise, that should be his role, which not only is on the mariners to go add more impactful pen arms, but it's also on the manager to stop deploying him in actual leverage.
56:23 --> 56:25 [SPEAKER_00]: By the way, let me say it again.
56:25 --> 56:29 [SPEAKER_00]: In-game strategist, I mean, we've had a couple weeks since the season's ended.
56:29 --> 56:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't seen any in-game strategists hired.
56:31 --> 56:32 [SPEAKER_00]: We're waiting.
56:33 --> 56:37 [SPEAKER_01]: So who should the in-game strategist so Dan's gonna have his board of bullpen decisions?
56:37 --> 56:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Who does um, who does the in-game strategist take off the board that Dan's not allowed to use?
56:42 --> 56:47 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like so Thornton won't be available next year because he's gonna be hurt with the Achilles all year.
56:47 --> 56:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Vargas.
56:48 --> 56:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I bet you Thornton comes back at some point.
56:52 --> 56:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Thornton's out the board in the back pocket.
56:56 --> 56:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So is Carlos Vargas?
56:58 --> 56:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
56:59 --> 57:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
57:01 --> 57:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I know Thornton ended up unfortunately getting injured, but when he was healthy this year, it was like, it was almost like a knee jerk reaction.
57:09 --> 57:10 [SPEAKER_00]: He had the title.
57:11 --> 57:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I was gonna say, I mean, Dan could not stop using him to save his life.
57:16 --> 57:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Not even that.
57:17 --> 57:20 [SPEAKER_01]: He was also the worst reliever in baseball by war.
57:21 --> 57:27 [SPEAKER_00]: What is it with the n wanting to use the worst relievers in baseball by war at like the highest rate possible?
57:28 --> 57:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
57:30 --> 57:37 [SPEAKER_01]: If Carlos Vargas blows us away and puts up a win above replacement next year, I will be the happiest man on planet earth.
57:38 --> 57:40 [SPEAKER_01]: But I just have nothing to go off of here.
57:41 --> 57:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So, my grade is going to remain as it is.
57:44 --> 57:50 [SPEAKER_00]: As Frank the Tank would say.
57:51 --> 57:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you watch fairly out parents growing up?
57:54 --> 57:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Not enough to remember that.
57:56 --> 58:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Denzel Crocker was wasn't the main character, but when you think of characters from that show, I don't think anybody jumps out more than him.
58:02 --> 58:07 [SPEAKER_00]: It has probably been at least 20 years if not longer.
58:08 --> 58:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Man, I was a huge fairly out parents fan.
58:10 --> 58:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I was a huge Denzel Crocker fan to be real.
58:14 --> 58:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Then the Crocker F on Carlos Vargas.
58:17 --> 58:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, again, I gave him a D because there was some decent peripherals, but In-game strategist, please, and that's not a Vargas thing.
58:25 --> 58:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Just like put Vargas in the leverage.
58:28 --> 58:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Use him and mop up.
58:29 --> 58:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Use him at the back.
58:29 --> 58:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Use him when you're winning or losing by a lot.
58:32 --> 58:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
58:33 --> 58:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
58:34 --> 58:35 [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
58:35 --> 58:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, those are the reliever grades.
58:37 --> 58:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, we said there was going to be four really good ones.
58:38 --> 58:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I think we just spent 10 minutes on the last guy.
58:43 --> 58:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Our buddy is it that of all of our grades episodes.
58:46 --> 58:51 [SPEAKER_01]: We spent the longest talking about the bullpen arms almost 100% because of Carlos Vargas.
58:51 --> 58:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And because certain Edward Bazarna decisions that were made that clearly got leaked out into the show, too.
58:58 --> 58:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
58:58 --> 58:59 [SPEAKER_00]: That's fair point.
58:59 --> 59:04 [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't even, I mean, we didn't even get to Gabe's fire carry carpenter or lack thereof.
59:04 --> 59:07 [SPEAKER_00]: There was too much else to go off, go on off of.
59:08 --> 59:08 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
59:08 --> 59:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And we didn't even get a chance to talk about all the other fun mariners arms from this year.
59:13 --> 59:16 [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't get to talk about Luis F. Castillo at all.
59:18 --> 59:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I think we can save people the time.
59:23 --> 59:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we're going to be doing a decision making great for the year.
59:28 --> 59:29 [SPEAKER_00]: You would like that.
59:29 --> 59:33 [SPEAKER_00]: You can just go right over to fan graphs because they highlighted it all.
59:36 --> 59:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
59:36 --> 59:36 [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
59:36 --> 59:39 [SPEAKER_00]: That's just about wraps up this edition of the Marine Lair podcast.
59:39 --> 59:40 [SPEAKER_00]: You guys know the drill.
59:40 --> 59:41 [SPEAKER_00]: You want to listen to the full form podcast.
59:41 --> 59:43 [SPEAKER_00]: You can do so wherever you get your audio pods.
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01:00:08 --> 01:00:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, that's marinelayerpod.com, and you can find us all across social media at Marine Layerpod.
01:00:13 --> 01:00:14 [SPEAKER_00]: That's TJ.
01:00:14 --> 01:00:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Lyle.
01:00:15 --> 01:00:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you guys for tuning in.
01:00:17 --> 01:00:18 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll talk to you soon.
01:00:56 --> 01:00:59 [UNKNOWN]: Thanks for watching!