Lyle and TJ are starting to get a little concerned with the Mariners potential infield options available with Alex Bregman signing with the Cubs. They discuss how this move affects what the Mariners can do (2:30).
For ad-free episodes, check out our Patreon: patreon.com/marinelayerpod
Merchandise, event schedule, and more: marinelayerpod.com
Email us: marinelayerpod@gmail.com
Check out Just Baseball: Click here
Follow the show on Twitter: @marinelayerpod
Find us on YouTube: Click here
Find us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@marinelayerpod
Find us on all Podcast Platforms: https://linktr.ee/MarineLayerPod
Follow TJ on Twitter: @tjmathewson
Follow Lyle on Twitter: @lyle_goldstein
Our Sponsors:
* Check out BetterHelp: https://www.betterhelp.com
Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands
Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy
00:00 --> 00:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to episode number 349 of the Marine Lair podcast.
00:03 --> 00:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Alex Braggman is off the board.
00:05 --> 00:12 [SPEAKER_01]: He signs a free agent deal with the Chicago Cubs and that can potentially have some ripple effects on the rest of the Mariners off season.
00:12 --> 00:13 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll discuss it.
00:13 --> 00:43 [SPEAKER_00]: reminder to you guys just do us a big favor if you're listening to these podcasts stay on top of all of it you can do so by downloading these episodes and if you do that go leave a five star review when you're reviewing this podcast it helps a ton of you do same idea on youtube go like comment and please hit subscribe you can also check everything out over our website marinelayerpod.com all of our episodes are there along with our merch which you can go buy our patreon's there as well that's over at marinelayerpod.com and then you can follow us
00:43 --> 00:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's get it rolling.
00:57 --> 01:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And we welcome you to this episode of the Marine Lair podcast, part of the just baseball podcast network recording here on Sunday afternoon January 11th.
01:06 --> 01:09 [SPEAKER_01]: There's been some movement in the offseason market.
01:09 --> 01:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Alex Breigwin goes to the Chicago Cubs.
01:11 --> 01:15 [SPEAKER_01]: He signs a five-year deal for $175 million.
01:15 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And that affects the Mariners options more than I think one would think by seeing that.
01:23 --> 01:24 [SPEAKER_01]: What was your initial takeaway?
01:26 --> 01:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm nervous.
01:28 --> 01:29 [SPEAKER_00]: That was my takeaway.
01:29 --> 01:32 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll dive into it all here as to why.
01:32 --> 01:36 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you want my takeaway from Alex Braggman signing with the Cubs, I'll stamp it.
01:37 --> 01:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Now I'm nervous.
01:39 --> 01:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Did it have to do with Alex Braggman himself or where he went?
01:43 --> 01:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It had everything to do with where he went.
01:47 --> 01:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Because if Alex Bregman and gone back to the Red Sox, I think there was still a potential plan in place where the Mariners could have made a trade for Nico Horner.
01:57 --> 02:04 [SPEAKER_00]: If the Cubs were gonna be in a spot where they were in in and out mode of
02:04 --> 02:13 [SPEAKER_00]: not rebuild by any means, but maybe don't have the roster to fully go win a world series this year and try to compete with the other top dogs in the NL.
02:13 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_00]: They'd say to themselves, let's try to recoup some value for Nico Horner with one year left on his deal if we don't think he's going to sign an extension or sign here in free agency.
02:22 --> 02:29 [SPEAKER_00]: By signing Alex
02:30 --> 02:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't blame him because if you take a look at the cubs infield now, they've outsprug been playing third, they've dansby swans and playing short, they have Nico Horner playing second and Michael Bush at first.
02:40 --> 02:43 [SPEAKER_01]: That is about a productive four.
02:43 --> 02:46 [SPEAKER_01]: You can throw Carson Kelly behind the plate if you add on to that.
02:46 --> 02:49 [SPEAKER_01]: He had a good year last year for a five on the dirt.
02:49 --> 02:51 [SPEAKER_01]: That's pretty good.
02:51 --> 02:58 [SPEAKER_01]: They're still as the risk there from a extension perspective with Nico Horner on whether or not he would sign.
02:58 --> 03:02 [SPEAKER_01]: But as an objective baseball fan here, not talking through a Mariners lens at all.
03:04 --> 03:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Having the ability to run with that for one season is better than recouping whatever value you might lose from him in free agency.
03:12 --> 03:13 [SPEAKER_01]: after the season.
03:14 --> 03:21 [SPEAKER_01]: It's probably better for them to just run one season with Nico Horner, and I'll for of these and deal with whatever it else it is after the season's over.
03:22 --> 03:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the cubs and all the wealth of revenue they make from all the real estate they own around their ballpark and the fact they're just they have a great TV deal as well that they could just sign you go Horner too and that won't be much of an issue at all.
03:34 --> 03:42 [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't see Alex Breggman getting added to the Cubs infield as positively impacting Nico Horner being available.
03:43 --> 03:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't see it at all.
03:44 --> 03:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Then we even checked in with some of the Cubs on whether or not Nico Horner would be available.
03:51 --> 03:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Didn't get a great, great response for a Mariners perspective on him being available.
03:55 --> 03:56 [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't sound like it.
03:57 --> 04:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, not only is Nico Horner loved in that clubhouse and by many accounts of fan favorite, he was a six win player last year by baseball reference.
04:09 --> 04:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Fan grabs it was a little closer to five, but he was a five to six win player last year.
04:15 --> 04:19 [SPEAKER_00]: What kind of message does it send to Alex Braggman and the rest of your team?
04:19 --> 04:25 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're going to go make a signing like that, and then just subtract it by trading one of your best players away.
04:25 --> 04:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Why in the world would that make any sense for a team that want to play off series last year?
04:29 --> 04:31 [SPEAKER_00]: They got to the divisional round.
04:32 --> 04:33 [SPEAKER_00]: He might still be their best player.
04:33 --> 04:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I would imagine Alex pregnant asked about that when he's negotiating a free agent contract.
04:38 --> 04:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Because when these guys sign their free agent contracts, think of the conversation that CalRolley had before he signed his extension this past off season and going into the 2020-25 season, those same questions get asked.
04:49 --> 04:51 [SPEAKER_01]: in a free agent negotiation.
04:52 --> 05:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure Altsbergman wants to know, besides all of his money, what the cubs are going to do to be competitive around him, because the last thing a fridge it wants to do is sign a contract somewhere, and end up like Chris Bryan on the Rockies, where his team is not only rudderless, but...
05:07 --> 05:09 [SPEAKER_01]: rudderless in the present and in the future.
05:09 --> 05:10 [SPEAKER_01]: There's just nothing going on.
05:11 --> 05:17 [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't outspirigment as a walk into the cubs and be like, yeah, I'll be okay if you guys decide to trade Nico Horner away just to sign me.
05:18 --> 05:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that would drive with him very much.
05:20 --> 05:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Think about where Alex came from in the Boston Red Sox.
05:23 --> 05:30 [SPEAKER_01]: The Red Sox probably had a similar pitch to Alex pregnant to get him to sign their last off season.
05:30 --> 05:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And what of the Red Sox done since then?
05:34 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a great message to sign to him, the send to him and Breggman had a pretty competitive offer from the Red Sox on the table and decided to go with the cups.
05:46 --> 05:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, apparently the vibe embossed in here on Sunday is they're pretty dejected.
05:50 --> 05:55 [SPEAKER_00]: They thought their deal with Breggman was going to get a done and for $10 million more he leaves.
05:56 --> 06:07 [SPEAKER_01]: because the reason the whole reason they traded Devers was to leave room for Braggman, especially if they were going to sign him to a longer-term deal than the one they currently had him under, and then they lose both of them.
06:07 --> 06:08 [SPEAKER_01]: For nothing.
06:09 --> 06:09 [SPEAKER_00]: That's bad.
06:09 --> 06:10 [SPEAKER_00]: That's bad.
06:10 --> 06:11 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a really bad look.
06:12 --> 06:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Dude, I'm going to be real just a quick side note.
06:14 --> 06:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I know Red Sox fans for every good reason are often not the most beloved fan base by the way they act.
06:22 --> 06:26 [SPEAKER_00]: and historically over the last 20 or so years, they've had it pretty damn good.
06:27 --> 06:32 [SPEAKER_00]: But since 2018, I don't blame that fanbase for being pissed off.
06:32 --> 06:35 [SPEAKER_00]: They nickel and dined mooky bets and then traded them away.
06:35 --> 06:37 [SPEAKER_00]: They nickel and dined Zander Bogart and that didn't work out.
06:38 --> 06:44 [SPEAKER_00]: They traded away Rothy Devers and here in this off season, they're the only team in the league to not sign a free agent yet.
06:45 --> 06:46 [SPEAKER_00]: They made a couple trades.
06:47 --> 06:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I know, but they aren't exactly acting like the Boston Red Sox these days.
06:53 --> 06:55 [SPEAKER_00]: They are acting like a little bit of a mid-market franchise.
06:56 --> 07:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't don't ask Jared Corabas how he's feeling he was on a heater yesterday.
07:02 --> 07:03 [SPEAKER_00]: him in that whole fan base.
07:03 --> 07:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, for good reason.
07:05 --> 07:06 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's more of a side note.
07:06 --> 07:11 [SPEAKER_00]: The reason we're doing this episode today is not to have some around the lead conversation.
07:12 --> 07:19 [SPEAKER_00]: It all stems back to Nico Horner here because as we've talked about, the Mariners options remaining for how to get this last infield back feels pretty limited.
07:20 --> 07:22 [SPEAKER_00]: What do we say about a week ago that there's three options?
07:22 --> 07:24 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the same three names we keep circling.
07:25 --> 07:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Could tell Marthet, Nico Horner, Brendan Donovan.
07:29 --> 07:33 [SPEAKER_00]: First two mentioned names of that list, you can now check off and cross off the board.
07:34 --> 07:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Catel Marte was announced by the Diamondbacks earlier at the end of last week, a few days ago, that he's not getting traded.
07:42 --> 07:43 [SPEAKER_00]: They said those negotiations have ended.
07:44 --> 07:44 [SPEAKER_00]: It's done.
07:44 --> 07:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Catel is going to be a part of our roster in 2026.
07:47 --> 07:52 [SPEAKER_00]: The Diamondbacks were not getting the packages for him that they wanted, and what they wanted for him was a King's ransom.
07:52 --> 07:54 [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't get it, so that was the end.
07:55 --> 07:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, Nico Horner.
07:56 --> 08:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Why in the world, again, would the cubs with this roster that they've now got together, would trade a six-wind player who is as good of a defensive second basement as anybody in the league, off a team that has a chance to seriously compete in the NFL?
08:11 --> 08:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And the only reason they would do it, you would think, is to address their current roster weaknesses.
08:17 --> 08:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So they have a surplus of infielders.
08:19 --> 08:29 [SPEAKER_01]: If you were to say they're one weakness as a roster, what you would have to offer up to the cubs to get them to trade Nico Horner would to be give them a top level starting pitcher.
08:30 --> 08:31 [SPEAKER_01]: But here's what the Mariners are not gonna do.
08:32 --> 08:36 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not gonna trade one of their top level starting pitchers for one year of a player.
08:36 --> 08:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just never gonna happen as good as Nico Horner is.
08:40 --> 08:41 [SPEAKER_01]: That takes it off the board.
08:41 --> 08:43 [SPEAKER_01]: What negotiating chips do you have?
08:43 --> 08:48 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not going to give you Nico Horner for Jorangel of Sanger.
08:49 --> 08:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think you'd want to do that either.
08:52 --> 08:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Not at all.
08:53 --> 08:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the Mariners might consider Jorangel of you perspective.
08:57 --> 08:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it works.
08:59 --> 09:02 [SPEAKER_00]: But you don't think I don't see it.
09:02 --> 09:08 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't think the Mariners would consider trading Sanger
09:09 --> 09:10 [SPEAKER_00]: What year?
09:11 --> 09:18 [SPEAKER_00]: It's up for debate, but if you're not going to trade for a year of horner, you're certainly not trading one of your big league starting pitchers.
09:18 --> 09:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So that ends the discussion.
09:20 --> 09:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Jeff Passons put out in the last 12 hours or so, in an article on ESPN.com, that the cubs are still listening to offers on Nico Horner.
09:28 --> 09:32 [SPEAKER_00]: How I take that is, this is no different than it's been all off season with them.
09:32 --> 09:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, the cubs are listening to offers on horner, but by listening, it means give us a top end starting
09:41 --> 09:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think they're actively shopping them around.
09:44 --> 09:50 [SPEAKER_00]: For what Brendan Donovan's level is, in terms of availability on the market, take that way down with Horner.
09:50 --> 09:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I would put Horner and could tell Marthay a lot closer together.
09:53 --> 09:59 [SPEAKER_00]: In the sense of if the Cubs are given an offer, they just simply can't refuse, that gives them legit starting pitching.
09:59 --> 10:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they think about it.
10:01 --> 10:15 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're talking about trading horner for prospects on a team that just signed brighman and seriously has the firepower to compete in the NL central and aside from the Dodgers, the rest of the NL, yeah, why in the world would they do that?
10:15 --> 10:28 [SPEAKER_01]: The only reason reason this would work out for the Mariners is if Logan Gilbert have one year of control left and no extension was signed, then you would then allow, I think you'd need to sit down and have that conversation
10:29 --> 10:31 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not confident Logan Gilbert signing an extension here.
10:31 --> 10:37 [SPEAKER_01]: We have the opportunity to add a six-win player to our infielder and do a one for one swap.
10:37 --> 10:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's it.
10:39 --> 10:41 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not trading them Logan Gilbert with two years of control.
10:42 --> 10:44 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not trading them George Kirby with three years of control.
10:45 --> 10:49 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not trading Bryce Miller or Brian Wu with five or four.
10:49 --> 10:51 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not doing that for.
10:52 --> 10:53 [SPEAKER_01]: No way you're doing that.
10:53 --> 10:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, honestly, would be the only fit and majorly baseball I could see the cubs doing that for.
10:59 --> 11:01 [SPEAKER_01]: It would be a one for one swap with Terrix Kubo.
11:04 --> 11:08 [SPEAKER_00]: But why would you do that if you're a team like the Tigers where you're trading one year to get one year?
11:09 --> 11:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you're adding a six-win player on your infield and your lineup which lacks contact and lacks consistent infielders.
11:18 --> 11:20 [SPEAKER_01]: They're best in field right now is
11:22 --> 11:24 [SPEAKER_01]: soon to be Kevin McGonagall, I don't know.
11:24 --> 11:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, and who's never played a single ending of Major League Baseball.
11:28 --> 11:29 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the point there.
11:30 --> 11:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's the only trade, like, from a value in a years of control perspective for Nico Horner, I would think the Cubs even consider.
11:38 --> 11:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Because what you highlighted to me, Cubs have a good rotation.
11:41 --> 11:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Their only problem is they don't have an ace level starter.
11:45 --> 11:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you make them move the needle?
11:46 --> 11:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they're not gonna trade Nico for bullpen arms.
11:49 --> 11:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So what you would have to do is you need to offer them something they don't already have.
11:52 --> 11:53 [SPEAKER_01]: They have good starters.
11:54 --> 11:55 [SPEAKER_01]: They need a great starter.
11:55 --> 12:00 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the only way I think you get an eyebrow to raise when talking about that.
12:00 --> 12:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's highlight this for a second because this is what I mean when I say the cubs are really good.
12:05 --> 12:06 [SPEAKER_00]: You align their infield, right?
12:06 --> 12:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Michael Bush at first, Horner at second, Dan's B. Swanson at short, and now you have Alex Braggman at third with Carson Kelly behind the plate, who Carson Kelly was really good last year.
12:16 --> 12:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Then you look at their outfield, Ian Happ, who's been really, really steady in a good player for a long time, PCA, who you know as a star, and then you'll have Seiya Suzuki out in right field.
12:27 --> 12:29 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a really, really good offense.
12:30 --> 12:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And when you look to their rotation, it's map void.
12:34 --> 12:37 [SPEAKER_00]: It's Edward Cabrera, who they just traded for, who's a really good arm.
12:37 --> 12:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It's Kate Horton, who's a young starter that has a chance to be a serious star and a top line pitcher.
12:43 --> 12:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you have showed it, even agate your forespot.
12:45 --> 12:47 [SPEAKER_00]: You have Jamis and Tion and your fivespot.
12:47 --> 12:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And you're going to get Justin steal back mid year, who two years ago finished top five and psi young voting.
12:53 --> 12:55 [SPEAKER_00]: The cubs are a really good team.
12:55 --> 12:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Why would they trade Nico Horner away?
12:59 --> 13:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Only if they were to add something, they don't have.
13:02 --> 13:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Which is, yes, somebody like George Kirby.
13:04 --> 13:08 [SPEAKER_00]: The mariners are hanging up the phone if they hear a cost Kirby for Nico Horner.
13:08 --> 13:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So then there's no deal.
13:10 --> 13:13 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's stamp it right here on the podcast.
13:13 --> 13:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Just like how I stamped this deal now makes me nervous with pregnant signing with the Cubs, I'll stamp it.
13:18 --> 13:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And Nico Horner ain't coming here.
13:20 --> 13:22 [SPEAKER_00]: You can cross it off.
13:22 --> 13:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Nope.
13:22 --> 13:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So where does that leave the Mariners because as we've cycled through, Alex Braggman represents the only major free agent.
13:29 --> 13:38 [SPEAKER_01]: The Mariners even had to our knowledge, besides Josh Nailer is separate, since that was a seemed like a slam dunk deal from the start.
13:38 --> 13:47 [SPEAKER_01]: After Josh Nailer, with the Mariners knowing what needs they had after that, which they said, we want a bullpen arm, we want a right-handed bat, and we need it and field bat.
13:47 --> 13:48 [SPEAKER_01]: From what they've said.
13:48 --> 13:58 [SPEAKER_01]: After that point, the only major, free agent bat, the mayor's reportedly on the record talk to, was Alex Breggman.
13:58 --> 14:01 [SPEAKER_01]: But Laun, I didn't think that was serious at all.
14:01 --> 14:07 [SPEAKER_01]: We thought that was a leverage play by Scott Morris and Alex Breggman to get more money out of these other teams.
14:08 --> 14:09 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's, that's check off one number one.
14:10 --> 14:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Number two is Nico Horner going off the board.
14:13 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Now that the cubs are pushing all their chips in on 2026.
14:17 --> 14:19 [SPEAKER_01]: off the board, Nico Horner.
14:19 --> 14:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Number three, could tell Marte this past weekend off the board.
14:23 --> 14:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's now three guys leaving you with essentially just Brendan Donovan, left.
14:32 --> 14:44 [SPEAKER_01]: In terms of like a major addition, they can always make like a more lottery ticket move for someone who's not as proven for someone who's not as historically good and it could work out for you.
14:44 --> 14:47 [SPEAKER_01]: But it just won't make us feel any better entering this season.
14:47 --> 14:52 [SPEAKER_01]: We need to see the games actually be played first, right?
14:52 --> 14:54 [SPEAKER_00]: which, who would that flyer be?
14:55 --> 14:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Could you circle back with the Orioles to take a flyer on one of those guys?
14:59 --> 15:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess somebody like Kobe Mayo?
15:02 --> 15:03 [SPEAKER_00]: But I couldn't, are they available?
15:03 --> 15:30 [SPEAKER_01]: right you don't know if they're available and isn't it a little telling that the Mariners and Orioles never seem to be able to work out a deal it just seems like those two teams never agreed on price and the Orioles don't do a lot of trading especially with the Mariners can I present something else to you back to the cubs for a second another reason why Nico Horner's probably not getting traded because if the cubs wanted a solid return for an endfielder you know who they'd get more back for than they would for Nico Horner.
15:32 --> 15:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Matt Shaw, who was a former top prospect.
15:35 --> 15:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And Matt Shaw, currently no longer has a position on the Cubs in field, but side being their potential utility guy.
15:43 --> 15:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure how good he is elsewhere around the in field, and his first full season immediately baseball this pastury wasn't great.
15:49 --> 15:58 [SPEAKER_01]: He runs fast, he'd grayed out well by DRS, but everything else, just like overall base running grade, out of a average offense, it was not great.
15:59 --> 16:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It's that would be more expensive to the Mariners on a neutral trade vacuum than it would acquire an equal owner.
16:09 --> 16:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So the Cubs wanted to get a return back for an infielder.
16:12 --> 16:16 [SPEAKER_01]: They would trade matcha and keep their infield great for this upcoming season.
16:17 --> 16:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to say it right here.
16:19 --> 16:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Matcha is not the answer.
16:22 --> 16:23 [SPEAKER_01]: If you think he's the answer,
16:24 --> 16:26 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to listen to me, but I'm gonna say it right now.
16:26 --> 16:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Matcha is not the answer to your off-season problems.
16:29 --> 16:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Not even close.
16:31 --> 16:41 [SPEAKER_00]: No, because he would cost a ridiculous amount in a trade package, and he's unproven, and you already have Colt Emerson with a bit of an avenue to play third base this year.
16:42 --> 16:43 [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't make any sense.
16:43 --> 16:46 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're gonna give up a real prospect hall, you do it for a proven guy.
16:47 --> 16:52 [SPEAKER_01]: You do it for someone who you don't already have two replicants of of your on your team.
16:52 --> 16:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Would you rather have Matt Shaw or Cole Young or Matt Shaw or Colt Emerson?
16:57 --> 17:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Two of those guys don't cost you anything and they're already on your roster.
17:01 --> 17:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
17:03 --> 17:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh boy, so this is why I say I'm nervous here, right?
17:07 --> 17:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Because it's been narrowed down to one guy who is essentially available for them.
17:12 --> 17:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And with Brendan Donovan and the Mariners, it sure is health feels like there's a real stand-off in trade talks right now.
17:18 --> 17:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Where these two sides value the trade a hell of a lot differently and have not been able to come together on a deal.
17:24 --> 17:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I would still feel pretty good about him getting treated, though.
17:28 --> 17:30 [SPEAKER_01]: What leverage do the Cardinals really have?
17:32 --> 17:35 [SPEAKER_00]: they're going to turn to the mariners and say, hey, you don't want Donovan?
17:35 --> 17:36 [SPEAKER_00]: What's your option instead?
17:38 --> 17:41 [SPEAKER_01]: But then the mariners would say, what value does it?
17:42 --> 17:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Does it impact you that you keep bringing Donovan?
17:45 --> 17:48 [SPEAKER_01]: What are the cardinals have to gain by keeping Brendan Donovan?
17:49 --> 17:50 [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to be bad, right?
17:51 --> 17:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Probably every every game he plays, he is less control.
17:55 --> 17:57 [SPEAKER_01]: He could potentially get hurt.
17:57 --> 17:59 [SPEAKER_01]: God forbid he has a down year.
18:00 --> 18:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Then his trade value is way down, which is why there's the standoff right now.
18:09 --> 18:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I think Brennan Donovan is going to get traded before opening day.
18:13 --> 18:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I saw some people online guessing maybe the Cardinals just hang on to him.
18:17 --> 18:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't see how that makes any sense at all.
18:18 --> 18:20 [SPEAKER_01]: They've already traded a lot of their key pieces.
18:21 --> 18:23 [SPEAKER_01]: This might be their most valuable trade asset.
18:23 --> 18:25 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not going to just sit on him.
18:26 --> 18:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
18:27 --> 18:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So counter proposal.
18:30 --> 18:34 [SPEAKER_00]: save the cardinals do trade them, but they trade them to the giants.
18:34 --> 18:35 [SPEAKER_01]: That would be a problem.
18:35 --> 18:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Then what?
18:37 --> 18:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Well then you're fucked.
18:41 --> 18:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And don't even need to take my words for it.
18:44 --> 18:47 [SPEAKER_01]: They have consistently said at this point of where the roster is.
18:47 --> 18:49 [SPEAKER_01]: They still need another infield bat.
18:50 --> 19:00 [SPEAKER_01]: If we were to get jury to photo and just and haul under off the record after my assumption, by the way, totally speculating, not saying anything with sourcing, I'm not putting words in their mouth.
19:00 --> 19:10 [SPEAKER_01]: But if Brennan Donovan got traded to the giants and you, I think, had it on his conversation with them, they would say, yes, we are a bat short.
19:12 --> 19:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we all we're not we're not blind here like we all understand it and I think they do too And they would understand that they like the off season was not as good as it could have been and then sure Maybe you have some concerns going into the season just like last year Hey leave themselves a batch short Often I would love to see that not happen this winner.
19:36 --> 19:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I really would because
19:42 --> 19:49 [SPEAKER_00]: plenty of success with Brendan Donovan, but the Mariners will not overpay and it seems like the Cardinals are asking for a lot.
19:50 --> 19:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Who box first?
19:52 --> 19:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Lucky for them, spring training is a bit away.
19:57 --> 20:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Opening day is almost four whole months away.
20:03 --> 20:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I know, but
20:05 --> 20:10 [SPEAKER_00]: deals usually are done by the time spring training starts unless it's a free agent to wait around to sign late.
20:10 --> 20:14 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't really see a lot of trades happen that often well into spring training.
20:14 --> 20:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess the Jesse Winkard Genotrade happened in mid March, but I feel like it doesn't happen that often.
20:20 --> 20:22 [SPEAKER_01]: If that's going to take, so that's what it takes.
20:23 --> 20:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Our offseason grade goes up to an opening day starts and the trade market dies down.
20:28 --> 20:29 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, right?
20:29 --> 20:33 [SPEAKER_01]: If they trade for Brennan Donovan midway through March, you're not going to complain about it.
20:33 --> 20:38 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'll just complain for the two months leading up to it, saying, or they're going to get this last deal done or not.
20:38 --> 20:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And we're just going to be sitting in limbo.
20:41 --> 20:52 [SPEAKER_01]: OK. As long as they make the trade before opening day starts, and Brennan Donovan is healthy and ready to go, I'm not going to give two crabs when they trade for them.
20:55 --> 20:58 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the problem though, right?
20:59 --> 21:00 [SPEAKER_00]: ignoring free agency.
21:00 --> 21:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
21:01 --> 21:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I understand they sign Josh Nailer, but Nailer almost feels more in the cow camp, Julio Camp, Castillo Camp, who they de facto extended.
21:10 --> 21:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I understand by a technicality he was a free agent.
21:13 --> 21:21 [SPEAKER_00]: But if Josh Nailer had never played a single inning for the Mariners leading into this free agency, do you think the Mariners give him 92 and a half million dollars?
21:21 --> 21:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I doubt it.
21:23 --> 21:28 [SPEAKER_01]: There's always a chance because my question you who would the Mariners' first basement have been otherwise?
21:28 --> 21:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but they don't give out contracts like that.
21:32 --> 21:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the reason they were comfortable giving it to Nailers because they knew them.
21:36 --> 21:40 [SPEAKER_01]: They might have been interested, the question is, what of Josh Nailer have been interested?
21:40 --> 21:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
21:41 --> 21:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's more fair.
21:42 --> 21:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the Mariners have been interested in free agents, that positions of need in the past and the free agents have said no.
21:48 --> 21:50 [SPEAKER_01]: The famous example is Trevor's story.
21:50 --> 21:56 [SPEAKER_01]: The Mariners and the Red Sox, both offer Trevor's story the exact same contract and Trevor's story chose to go to Boston.
21:58 --> 21:59 [SPEAKER_01]: In hindsight, thank goodness he did.
22:00 --> 22:00 [SPEAKER_01]: But.
22:01 --> 22:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't always work out, Chris Bryant, for example, someone we were pounding the table for, has been an objective disaster with the Colorado Rockies and would have set the Mariners back years with this contract to be signed here.
22:14 --> 22:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But then there's the good ones that work out.
22:16 --> 22:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Trade-turners contract is looking solid right now, right?
22:20 --> 22:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Josh Nailers contract, I think we'll work out fine.
22:23 --> 22:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Alex Breggman's contract for a 31 year old.
22:25 --> 22:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that the Mariners are gonna sign a top level free agent.
22:28 --> 22:30 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the kind of contract you're gonna do.
22:30 --> 22:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you can't defer as much money because you don't have the cash available that the cubs do.
22:35 --> 22:40 [SPEAKER_01]: But a five-year deal at a high AAV, I feel like you can do if you have the space for it.
22:40 --> 22:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the Mariners main beef is they don't want to pay someone up until they're 40.
22:43 --> 22:46 [SPEAKER_01]: But Alex Breggman's only going to be signed until he's 36 years old.
22:47 --> 22:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, maybe he's not going to be great.
22:49 --> 22:52 [SPEAKER_01]: He's not going to be peak Alex Breggman by the time that contract expires.
22:53 --> 22:55 [SPEAKER_01]: But the odds of him sucking are pretty low.
22:56 --> 22:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Like Robinson Kano and Nelson Cruz by that age.
22:58 --> 23:05 [SPEAKER_00]: We're not what they once were, but they were
23:05 --> 23:08 [SPEAKER_00]: His last year was not as good, but it was still very productive.
23:08 --> 23:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Are you gonna make me pull up the numbers?
23:10 --> 23:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm pretty sure Nellie was an all-star level hitter every year that contract.
23:13 --> 23:16 [SPEAKER_01]: He wants, he just was better his first three years.
23:17 --> 23:19 [SPEAKER_00]: He was, although his last year, he put up a...
23:19 --> 23:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was like an eight, something OPS?
23:22 --> 23:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he had a 130, or sorry, no.
23:25 --> 23:29 [SPEAKER_00]: He had a 135 OPS+, yeah, he had an eight, 50 OPS.
23:30 --> 23:30 [SPEAKER_01]: He was good.
23:30 --> 23:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he went to Minnesota the next year and was unbelievable.
23:34 --> 23:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
23:34 --> 23:35 [SPEAKER_00]: You was really good.
23:35 --> 23:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And the years before that he was even better.
23:37 --> 23:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, you're right that that is the type of contract that would probably at least entice the Mariners a little bit more.
23:43 --> 23:50 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're Alex pregnant and Scott Boris, how are you ranking Boston Chicago Seattle on your priority list pretty pretty low?
23:51 --> 23:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is where the Mariners need to improve their sales pitch?
23:55 --> 23:59 [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think they had any interest really in Alex Regman in the first place.
23:59 --> 24:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Probably because they didn't think it was worth the effort to try and pursue him while there were other options out there, given that Alex Regman probably had no interest in coming to Seattle.
24:08 --> 24:24 [SPEAKER_00]: He'll be interesting to watch in Chicago, because he is a guy that despite all the numbers backing up his production through his career, he's a guy that has really feasted on right-handed hitter friendly ball parks in his career between Houston and between Boston.
24:24 --> 24:26 [SPEAKER_00]: We saw this happen with Eastok Parades, right?
24:26 --> 24:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And Tampa, he was great in Houston, he was pretty productive to super-right-handed hitter-friendly parks.
24:33 --> 24:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And in Chicago, he was pretty bad in the three months that he was there.
24:37 --> 24:38 [SPEAKER_00]: What's Breggman gonna be like?
24:38 --> 24:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I will be interested to find out, which could have been another potential concern for the Mariners.
24:44 --> 24:48 [SPEAKER_00]: So in summary, Lyle, are you, so you're not feeling good right now.
24:49 --> 24:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Not great.
24:50 --> 24:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Look, if the off-season ends and this is their roster, I'll probably say it when and if the time comes too.
24:57 --> 24:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not gonna be mad.
24:58 --> 24:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll just be disappointed.
25:00 --> 25:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it will.
25:02 --> 25:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll be a little frustrated, but more disappointed than mad.
25:05 --> 25:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Last off season I was mad because that was a straight abomination, what we watched last off season.
25:09 --> 25:16 [SPEAKER_00]: This off season, the team isn't a better spot, but they will not have done enough in this off season if they do not get this last bat.
25:16 --> 25:27 [SPEAKER_01]: If I'm going to put a positive spin on it, number one, you're hitting core this year going into the season right now is much better than it was last year, especially now that you've seen what Cal's ceiling is.
25:28 --> 25:45 [SPEAKER_01]: It also helps that you realize last season you got the worst possible performance out of your starting rotation and still one 90 games and the division and it's almost a certainty that you're pitching staff this year is going to be better and less hurt.
25:45 --> 25:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Unless multiple guys tear their UCL and get Tommy John this year, it has to be a certainty that your guys are better than what they were last year.
25:55 --> 25:59 [SPEAKER_00]: The counter side to that is what happens if your superstar catcher doesn't hit 60 home runs again.
26:00 --> 26:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And Cal is a more normal year where he hits 35 homers.
26:03 --> 26:12 [SPEAKER_00]: He has a 125 WRC plus and is good on defense, but he puts up a four and a half to five win season, which is the best catcher in baseball, but it might not be an MVP.
26:13 --> 26:15 [SPEAKER_00]: If Cal had not last year, they might have been out of it by the deadline.
26:16 --> 26:23 [SPEAKER_01]: But he gets offset by the fact that your rotation goes back and to be in the top 10 where they have to be, where they should be based on how good they are.
26:25 --> 26:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a balance with this.
26:28 --> 26:28 [SPEAKER_00]: There is.
26:29 --> 26:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I think we're both in agreement and the whole fan base is in agreement that they need one more bat and I hope they find a way to get it done.
26:34 --> 26:39 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, this is part of the frustration man when you just put on free agency every year.
26:40 --> 26:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I understand that not every free agent works, but if you were a ball club that had a certain value on a certain free agent that you deemed it was worth to pay the money to and the money would equal or surpass the production.
26:52 --> 26:57 [SPEAKER_00]: and you said great, this is a guy we would be okay paying the money to, even if it's a lot.
26:57 --> 26:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Say you miss out on them.
26:58 --> 27:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Then you can pivot to the trade market and say, all right, we value this guy here.
27:02 --> 27:03 [SPEAKER_00]: We value this guy there.
27:03 --> 27:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Here are two guys that we can now look at on the trade route because we've seriously pursued a free agent, but it didn't work.
27:10 --> 27:18 [SPEAKER_00]: The problem is when you don't even consider these free agents and you just claim them quote unquote out of your budget, which as you know, I don't really believe in, but that's what the Mariners say.
27:19 --> 27:21 [SPEAKER_00]: When you claim somebody out of your budget,
27:22 --> 27:28 [SPEAKER_00]: then you are cutting off such a massive portion of the market every year where it limits your options.
27:28 --> 27:33 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a reason we've only talked about three guys this winter for the most part, in terms of who you could add.
27:34 --> 27:48 [SPEAKER_00]: It's all through the trade route because if you want to talk about Boba Shet and you want to talk about Alex Breggman, we could have all the conversations you want unfortunately a part of the conversation that has to be had every single time with those guys is, well they're not going to pay them.
27:50 --> 27:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know what else to say there.
27:53 --> 27:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
27:55 --> 28:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you want to argue that Boba Shet would have a hard time fitting this roster because you don't know what to do with Cole Young.
28:01 --> 28:04 [SPEAKER_00]: If you sign Boba Shet to play second base long term, I get it.
28:05 --> 28:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Might be an interesting fit because even after this year of JP Crawford leaves and Colt Emerson slides to short, I don't know if Boba Shet can play third base.
28:13 --> 28:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if Cole Young can play third base.
28:15 --> 28:17 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's some conversation to be had there.
28:17 --> 28:20 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're talking about upgrading the offense,
28:21 --> 28:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Bose got his issues defensively, but you know he can hit and you need bands like everybody's going to laugh and I get it, but I'm going to bring up Kyle Tucker here for a second again and honestly in a while I am serious, I'll still sign up, but in a more serious matter than usual because what that guy does is
28:43 --> 28:46 [SPEAKER_00]: gives no headache to any of your young infielders getting playing time.
28:47 --> 28:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Call young Colt Emerson, Caltarker doesn't factor into that.
28:50 --> 29:00 [SPEAKER_00]: You'd stick him in right field, you'd have Rob Reft Snyder play in his DH role and hit lefties a bunch of the time, and you'd tell the rest of those right fielders that they're either going to have a diminished role or you trade them for other assets.
29:01 --> 29:02 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the fit right there, man.
29:02 --> 29:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I know everybody's gonna roll their eyes out.
29:04 --> 29:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, Lyle, you talk about Kyle Tucker all the time, just give it a rest.
29:07 --> 29:12 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're now talking about fit, especially with Braggman off the board and Horner now likely not come in here.
29:12 --> 29:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he's coming here.
29:14 --> 29:15 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the fit, man.
29:15 --> 29:21 [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't affect any of your young infielders, but are they gonna pick up the phone about that?
29:24 --> 29:25 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll see.
29:25 --> 29:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I guess we'll see.
29:26 --> 29:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Though, the thing that always, I think about with Kyle Tucker is that I can remember who told us this, but like Kyle Tucker reportedly would be, would be willing to play in Tampa Bay on a discount, like play for the race, because that's where, that's where K. Tucker lives.
29:44 --> 29:54 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm like, all right, if Kyle Tucker is willing to take a discount to play in the
29:55 --> 30:04 [SPEAKER_01]: what would be the serious not sarcastic like he's gonna play here sales pitch the serious sales pitch of signing Kyle Tucker in Seattle.
30:06 --> 30:07 [SPEAKER_00]: What would it be?
30:08 --> 30:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you are going to have to overpay, but I would much rather overpay for that guy than I would for Bo or Braggman or some of the guys that have been free agents in past year, Sons in there, etc.
30:18 --> 30:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I would way rather overpay for him because he's younger, he's more productive.
30:22 --> 30:23 [SPEAKER_00]: He's one of the best hitters in baseball.
30:23 --> 30:28 [SPEAKER_00]: He's been that every year since about 2021.
30:27 --> 30:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So he's younger and you could pay him more if you actually tried to overpay him and you say to yourself You will be a legend in this city for the rest of your life if you come here in win a world series There will be statues built of you That's the pitch you want to go play for the Dodgers they've won man.
30:46 --> 30:46 [SPEAKER_00]: They've won with you.
30:47 --> 30:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
30:47 --> 30:48 [SPEAKER_00]: They've won without you.
30:48 --> 30:52 [SPEAKER_01]: They'll keep winning without you You're gonna be the most famous player on that team.
30:52 --> 30:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe fourth or fifth Seattle.
30:54 --> 30:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you're oh no
30:57 --> 31:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, would he be more famous than Julio and Cal?
31:01 --> 31:02 [SPEAKER_00]: He came and produced.
31:03 --> 31:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
31:04 --> 31:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, the Dodgers, I think it ranks even lower than that.
31:06 --> 31:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you got the big three.
31:07 --> 31:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Show Hey Freddy, Mookie, and then you know, Yamamoto.
31:12 --> 31:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, if you want to factor Roki Sasaki and have the Japan factor played into that, yeah, you know, it's be another guy on that roster.
31:21 --> 31:25 [SPEAKER_01]: But well, then he can go to Tampa and he can play to
31:26 --> 31:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, or Toronto, which is where the most smoke has been about his free agency.
31:31 --> 31:33 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm serious, man.
31:33 --> 31:39 [SPEAKER_00]: With what's left out there, that is the fit because there is no headaches with playing coal-jong or coal-damer cent if you go and did that.
31:40 --> 31:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's still sitting out there.
31:41 --> 31:51 [SPEAKER_00]: What does Palpatine say when he saves Vader or I guess Anakin in revenge of the Sith when he's on the on Mustafar on the lava planet?
31:51 --> 31:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's near dead, but he walks up to him.
31:56 --> 31:57 [SPEAKER_00]: He talks still alive.
31:59 --> 32:00 [SPEAKER_01]: He's still alive.
32:00 --> 32:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he is.
32:01 --> 32:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we need some positivity to finish out this episode.
32:04 --> 32:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I think the negative energy has been pent up a little bit.
32:07 --> 32:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's too much worry within the Mariners fan base.
32:11 --> 32:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe within this podcast about the current stage of season.
32:15 --> 32:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yes, I am worrying.
32:16 --> 32:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Correct.
32:17 --> 32:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's let's cheer everyone up later here a little bit.
32:21 --> 32:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you happen to see an interaction on Twitter this weekend, between some baseball content creators in a former majorly GM?
32:31 --> 32:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but elaborate.
32:34 --> 32:37 [SPEAKER_01]: The Philly set a GM in the 2010s named Rubin Amaro Jr.
32:37 --> 32:42 [SPEAKER_01]: He took over, I think, in 2010, I want to say, 2010 or 2011.
32:44 --> 32:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And he did not have a great tenure.
32:45 --> 32:51 [SPEAKER_01]: He took a roster from like 100 wins to mid 60s and got fired.
32:51 --> 32:52 [SPEAKER_01]: He was not very good.
32:52 --> 32:56 [SPEAKER_01]: He got into a spat this weekend online.
32:58 --> 33:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Essentially exposing himself that he views offense very old school and very traditionally, that his philosophy on teams comes about driving in runs, scoring runs, producing runs, winning games, that all the old school stuff when it comes to that.
33:15 --> 33:38 [SPEAKER_01]: and there were a lot of people that were that he was battling with and people were just pointing out the fact it's like wow no wonder you failed as a GM dude your inability to like even consider some new age numbers or information might be a big reason it might be a big reason that you failed and I couldn't help when I saw this I couldn't help but think about Jack Serenzek.
33:40 --> 33:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, dude, if he had a Twitter, I can't even imagine some of the takes he'd be firing off.
33:44 --> 33:48 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a man who lied about getting the job, saying he believed in analytics.
33:49 --> 33:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And then once he got into the position, is like, what do I care about?
33:53 --> 33:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, batting average in RBI's home runs RBI's and pitcher wins.
33:58 --> 33:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Pitcher wins!
34:00 --> 34:05 [SPEAKER_00]: You're being paid millions of dollars to operate a billion dollar franchise.
34:06 --> 34:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, picture wins.
34:07 --> 34:16 [SPEAKER_00]: You had a man on your team, win a side young, and have a Hall of Fame case in spite of picture wins.
34:17 --> 34:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Just to give you a peek behind the curtains here, some people who listen to us might not be WRC plus people.
34:22 --> 34:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And if that's how you think, look, we love all of our listeners, more respect to you, Launai, or believers in advanced numbers and believe they offer a lot more information and insight into players than the traditional numbers do.
34:36 --> 34:45 [SPEAKER_01]: But in the mind of Rubin Amaro Jr. here, his response to a bunch of people like trashing him for handing out an extension to Ryan Howard.
34:46 --> 34:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So here's how this interaction goes.
34:49 --> 34:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So no more feelers who is a YouTuber.
34:52 --> 34:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Quote tweets, Rubin Amaro already in a spat about his tenure with the fillings and says,
34:59 --> 35:26 [SPEAKER_01]: What you you gave up my dude you gave Ryan Howard a completely unnecessary five-year extension like just Unit like crazy that you did that Rubin and Marlson's yeah, I did best off in some player in the game at his time Sadly blew it as a kill it's unfortunate makes me dumb someone responds he was not the best offence of player at his time He was the 12 from 2005 to 2008 when he said his peak he was the 12 best player in WRC plus but
35:26 --> 35:29 [SPEAKER_01]: by whatever 16th overall value by fan graphs.
35:30 --> 35:43 [SPEAKER_01]: The only stat he led majorly baseball in this time was home runs to which Rubin Amaro Jr. responds to says, if you give a crap about WRC whatever, to me it was about driving in runs, scoring runs, producing runs and winning games.
35:43 --> 35:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And then no more fielders responded again and said Rubin, do you know WRC pluses a stat that measures everything you just listed?
35:53 --> 35:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And I could only imagine.
35:55 --> 36:02 [SPEAKER_01]: If there were some forward-thinking members of the Mariners front office, not named Jaxi, that we're trying to explain that to him when signing, oh, I don't know.
36:03 --> 36:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Pick a pick your favorite Mariners Jaxi player, who he got for that Mark Trumbo.
36:11 --> 36:13 [SPEAKER_01]: That was the conversation that was to be had.
36:16 --> 36:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
36:16 --> 36:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna say calm for this.
36:19 --> 36:27 [SPEAKER_00]: But do people understand that stats like RBIs are so dependent on other factors?
36:28 --> 36:33 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't drive in runs if nobody else on your team is on base.
36:33 --> 36:41 [SPEAKER_00]: This is why RBIs are dumb, because sure is there some dependency on every individual player?
36:42 --> 36:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
36:42 --> 36:45 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you crush a double into the gap,
36:45 --> 36:49 [SPEAKER_00]: and a good offense has two runners on base for that, and a bad offense doesn't.
36:50 --> 36:55 [SPEAKER_00]: How in the world is it more deserving for the guy that had more guys on base to get more money?
36:55 --> 37:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Just because other people happen to be on base, which he had no control over.
37:00 --> 37:04 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't control the amount of runs you drive in for the most part.
37:04 --> 37:07 [SPEAKER_00]: WRC Plus doesn't take that stuff into account.
37:07 --> 37:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It is dependent on you.
37:09 --> 37:10 [SPEAKER_00]: It takes an era.
37:10 --> 37:13 [SPEAKER_00]: It takes a ballpark factor.
37:13 --> 37:15 [SPEAKER_00]: It takes the ability to draw walks.
37:16 --> 37:17 [SPEAKER_00]: It is your production.
37:19 --> 37:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we can just appreciate how far baseball has come.
37:23 --> 37:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And just the last 15 years when it comes to how people think about the game.
37:27 --> 37:30 [SPEAKER_01]: There are still organizations that probably don't think that way at all.
37:31 --> 37:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And they're usually the worst ones.
37:33 --> 37:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Rockies, white socks.
37:36 --> 37:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
37:37 --> 37:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Angels.
37:38 --> 37:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
37:38 --> 37:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, the angels.
37:39 --> 37:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
37:41 --> 37:43 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a reason they signed so many of the players they do.
37:44 --> 37:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's crazy, man.
37:46 --> 37:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I like for people that don't like analytics and use analytics as a crutch word for saying, oh, well, the analytics say to do this, which is so dumb.
37:54 --> 37:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Could we try instead of using the word analytics?
37:57 --> 38:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Could we try and just use the word information?
38:00 --> 38:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Could we try that instead?
38:01 --> 38:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Can we just use the word information?
38:03 --> 38:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Because that's all analytics is.
38:05 --> 38:10 [SPEAKER_00]: It's giving you more information to evaluate a player to the best of your ability.
38:10 --> 38:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody's taking away batting average and RBIs.
38:12 --> 38:13 [SPEAKER_00]: You can still look at that stuff.
38:14 --> 38:19 [SPEAKER_00]: But it just gives so much more of a clear picture on every player with additional information.
38:19 --> 38:22 [SPEAKER_00]: If anybody's not an analytics person listening to this,
38:22 --> 38:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody can be a fan however they want.
38:24 --> 38:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I always say that, but I would just encourage those people to at least consider using the word information rather than analytics because that's all it is.
38:35 --> 38:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And then when you say it the same way you say it without we when you say information instead of analytics doesn't sound as good doesn't it I don't want this if why is information making decisions.
38:47 --> 38:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Then why pay attention at all right.
38:50 --> 38:53 [SPEAKER_00]: instead, you can just, yeah, go back to the Stone Age of baseball.
38:54 --> 38:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, the summary is I thought that was funny.
38:56 --> 39:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought there was some relatability to the Mariners given that I think that was a big reason why they were not as successful in the 2010, the 2010s, early 2010s with that front office who,
39:10 --> 39:27 [SPEAKER_01]: lacked information in a lot of areas and it showed up everywhere, it showed up in their drafting, it showed up in their ability to develop prospects, it showed in their ability to build a competent bigly roster despite the fact that was at a time when ownership was most willing to invest money in its roster.
39:27 --> 39:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Signed Felix, sign Nelson Cruz, signed Robinson cano, signed Kyle Seager, gave them a lot of money at the top of the market and that front office
39:39 --> 39:41 [SPEAKER_01]: to what we just watched this last year.
39:41 --> 39:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
39:42 --> 39:42 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no.
39:43 --> 39:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
39:45 --> 39:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Huh, okay.
39:47 --> 39:50 [SPEAKER_00]: That just about wraps up this edition of the Marine Lair podcast.
39:50 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_00]: You guys know the drill.
39:51 --> 39:57 [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to listen to the full foreign podcast, you can do so wherever you get your audio pods, if you're listening, do us a big favor.
39:57 --> 40:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Please go download these episodes and go leave a five star review when you're rating and reviewing and helps ton of if you do.
40:02 --> 40:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Same idea over on YouTube.
40:04 --> 40:06 [SPEAKER_00]: You got to see the subscribe button in front of you, right?
40:06 --> 40:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Just take a second.
40:07 --> 40:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Just go hit it.
40:08 --> 40:10 [SPEAKER_00]: That way you get notified whenever we're posting new content.
40:10 --> 40:13 [SPEAKER_00]: It supports the channel a ton if you hit subscribe on YouTube.
40:13 --> 40:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Also drop a like on this video and leave a comment too.
40:15 --> 40:20 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you make of this whole situation with Horner, with Brendan Donovan, with Breigman Siding, with the Cubs?
40:20 --> 40:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Let us know your thoughts.
40:21 --> 40:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Where we're curious to see where the fanbase is at.
40:22 --> 40:24 [SPEAKER_00]: So tell us down in the comments.
40:24 --> 40:28 [SPEAKER_00]: You can also check us out at our website, marinelayerpod.com, go get your merch.
40:28 --> 40:31 [SPEAKER_00]: It's all over on our website, our Patreon's there for you to sign up for as well.
40:32 --> 40:37 [SPEAKER_00]: That's marinelayerpod.com, and then you can find us across social media at Marinelayerpod.
40:37 --> 40:38 [SPEAKER_00]: That's TJ, I'm Lyle.
40:38 --> 40:39 [SPEAKER_00]: It's always weird.
40:39 --> 40:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you guys for tuning in.
40:40 --> 40:41 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll talk to you soon.