Episode 47: Jayson Stark (The Athletic), The Orioles Annoy Us, And The Curious Case Of George Kirby

00:00:00 Speaker 1: Welcome to episode number forty seven of the Marine Layer podcast. On today's episode, we have on a Hall of Famer Jason Stark. We run through some of his fun ideas for the future of baseball. We also over the weekend realize the Orioles are kind of annoying. Also talk about George Kirby. 00:00:17 Speaker 2: Do us a big favorite, Guys, before we start this show. If you're listening on our audio platforms, go check us out on YouTube too. We have a whole video side of this podcast. Head over there, subscribe, like comment, turn the notification bills onto that way, you know, when we post a video or an episode. If you're listening on YouTube and watching on YouTube, go check us out. On the audio side, Apple, Spotify, Google, and Amazon you can download our episodes, follow us and give us that five star review. And on social media, which if you're following us on there, you know we do a bunch of player stuff, a bunch of show content, a bunch of really unique stuff, and we're active all the time Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, and YouTube shorts. Go follow us there at marine Layer pot. 00:00:58 Speaker 1: Let's get it rolling, and we welcome you to this episode of the Marine Layer podcast, part of the Just Baseball podcast network, recording here on Monday night, August fourteenth, and Lyle, instead of talking about an embarrassing Mariners loss to the Kansas City Rules, I thought we should change it up a little bit. So if you're watching on YouTube, you can see I'm sitting here wearing a wonderful Kirkland brand shirt because me, I have an affinity for Lyle's hometown and I feel like I have to wrap. But now I'm sitting and staring across at you, Lyle, and I'm not seeing a Ballard shirt anywhere, So I have to ask you where is it? 00:01:52 Speaker 2: Where do you even buy a Ballard T shirt? Can you buy a Ballard T shirt somewhere? 00:01:57 Speaker 1: I don't know. Dog, you got Google, he could probably figure it out. 00:02:02 Speaker 2: Well, you put me on the spot here if I tried to multitask Google and also talk here on the pod. All right, this is a homework assignment for me. I'm gonna have to look see where you could get a Ballard shirt. One of the breweries has to have some Ballard affiliation out in the Ballard Beer district. 00:02:16 Speaker 1: I'm sure, yes, I'm sure that's one spot where you could find it even though you're not a beer drinker, but you could pretend like you're a beer drinker. 00:02:25 Speaker 2: That's true. Hey, some of these breweries have mixed drinks or things like that, which is I don't know. I just don't like how beer is so heavy, so I opt not to drink it all that often. I go with other things when it comes to drinks, like things like Moscow mules or yeah, things that are mixed drinks not beer. However, doesn't mean these breweries don't have some cool shirts. So maybe somebody could hook me up with one, or I can buy one somewhere. 00:02:52 Speaker 1: That's good. So I think it would be even enough that one show I wear a Kirkland shirt and you wear a Ballad shirt, so we can say between west Side and east Side, we can essentially this is us extending our hands in truce. 00:03:07 Speaker 2: Well that's great because before I met you, I didn't realize that all these inner city Seattle people had gripes with people on the east Side. But you've taught me the way that apparently there's beef there. 00:03:19 Speaker 1: It's probably manufactured, and maybe a lot of it manufactured by myself for a bit on this podcast, But I think it's more fun than if everyone was just at peace, because then where's the fun. 00:03:32 Speaker 2: Yeah, then there's nothing to talk about. But we're sitting here making things to talk about on the spot here because we don't want to talk about what we just watched on TV tonight, which was, well, we're not going to talk about it, the Mariners and the Royals, right. 00:03:44 Speaker 1: Instead of watching the Mariners and Royals tonight, I actually decided to open up Netflix and watch Suits instead. Infinitely more entertaining and I didn't have to worry about a ninth inning lead. 00:03:54 Speaker 2: Well you're lying. I know you watched. We're just not going to talk about it exactly. 00:03:58 Speaker 1: No, I didn't. Instead, I watch Lawyers in New York City. I thought it was fascinating, way more entertaining. 00:04:06 Speaker 2: Now I'm trying to figure out your sarcasm over the computer here. You're texting me live during the game. 00:04:11 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm full of shit. Okay, I was not watching Suits. I'll usually watch Suits before I go to bed. Fantastic show, by the way, not Speak your Mind but special shout out here on a non Speak your Mind edition. Yeah that was fucking sad. I don't know how else to say that. 00:04:27 Speaker 2: Not good, not good at all, And we're going to talk about the Orioles here. In the last three games as we sit here at the time of recording, they've put fans back through the ringer a little bit after rip it off. 00:04:37 Speaker 1: Eh straight, Let's get to our Mariners storylines because we can kind of tie the first part of our first storyline and what happened tonight in a row. So the title of this first storyline is I've realized over this weekend, not only do I think the Mariners are as good as the Orioles, which is hilarious given what we watch tonight here on Monday night in Kansas City. However, I still think the point stands after watching a weekend of baseball of Mariners and Orioles, that the Orioles because of the fact I think the two teams are just as good, but the Orioles managed to win, which in turn makes me think, Man, the Orioles have been really annoying. I think really annoying for these two series they've played. I don't know how else to describe it. 00:05:29 Speaker 2: The Mariners are two and four on the year against the Orioles. All four games that they have lost have been just excruciating losses. They've been nails on a chalkboard type losses, all four of them. You remember the series back in Baltimore, The two games they lost then were really painful to watch, and man the two this weekend. Oof. 00:05:49 Speaker 1: They've lost to the Orioles three times in the tenth inning and the other time by one single run. Now, if I described a team that got outscored across six games by what was it, thirteen runs? The Mariners outscored the Orioles this year thirty one to eighteen one, but won the season series four to two, three of them in extra ratings, one of them by one run. What team do you think of. 00:06:16 Speaker 2: Well, you would think it would be the team with the better run differential, which is part of what makes me sit here and scratch my head about the Orioles. So, the Orioles run differential this year is in the sixties, so it's plus sixty five about But I'm sitting here, and maybe this is a take. I'm sitting here looking at this Orioles team. Are they not a slightly better version of the twenty twenty one Mariners in the sense of they win a lot of close games, Their bullpen's really good. Their offense is fine, not great. It's probably better than the twenty one Mariners offense was. But their expected win total, if you look at expected win loss in their Pythagorean win total, ninety wins. This is the team with the most wins in the American League. There are at seventy plus wins, and they're expected win lost total for the season is expected is expected to be ninety, same amount of games that the Mariners won in twenty twenty one. So something here just gets my blood boiling. 00:07:14 Speaker 1: A couple things with this. Orioles, I think are a little younger than the twenty one Mariners. They have a little bit more star power as well, and the back end of the bullpen is a little bit better than that twenty one Mariners team. And I think that makes a big difference because it definitely made a big difference in the games they were playing this season. The Mariners got one home run off of King Felix Bautista this year, courtesy of Mike Ford. But otherwise you saw it there on Saturday night, Orioles just let him go out there and win the game. Mariners don't have that caliber of arm in the bullpen because Andre's Muno sure hasn't pitched like it and not to that caliber. And now there is Matt Brash, especially after what he did tonight in Kansas City. So like that's a that's a difference right there. Two winnings of utter dominance with the team has no chance. 00:08:02 Speaker 2: I'm making you take back the King Felix thing, like. 00:08:05 Speaker 1: Sorry, it was kind of sarcastic. It was kind of sarcastic. 00:08:09 Speaker 2: Well, for those who are listening and maybe can't hear the tone of your voice, I hope you were here publicly taking that back because unacceptable. 00:08:17 Speaker 1: Sorry, we can have Softy on and tell me I'm full of shit. That's fine. 00:08:21 Speaker 2: Yeah, like we said, we're gonna have to get Softie back on at some point, especially after this Orioles series and all that. Yeah, I mean, so, the thing about the Orioles bullpen is you're right, there's more firepower at the back end than the twenty one Mariners had. Don't get us wrong. Casey Sadler, Drew Steckenryder, Paul sy While that year were awesome, Casey Sadler era was below oh seven in twenty twenty one, but they were not the type of arms that Felix Batista was, or maybe even Yenni or Cano. Those two guys when it's eight and nine, or like on Saturday, when Batista went two innings in the ninth and ten, it just feels like game over. It feels like games are shortened to seven innings with those guys because they're so lockdown. 00:09:00 Speaker 1: Seemingly, the only team that doesn't really seem to care about is that that is the Astros, which really just twinses the heartstrings here. 00:09:08 Speaker 2: It's true, although if you look by the numbers the Orioles and Mariners this season, in terms of how they compare, it's pretty close. Then there's an argument to be made the Mariners are better. These teams are thirteenth and fourteenth in WRC plus, so their neck and neck offensively, the Mariners are the better rotation clearly. And in terms of bullpen it's pretty close too. So if you look at Eer, the Mariners have the edge. If you look at FIP and f War, the Orioles have the edge, but it's close. I mean, these are both top five bullpen units. There's an argument to be made the Mariners are the better team here, but one way or another, it is really close. And we're talking about the team with the most wins in the American League and the Orioles and a team that's currently on the outside looking in and the Mariners who finally started to get hot over the last month. It doesn't feel like the gap is that big. It really doesn't. 00:09:55 Speaker 1: And you think about truly executing your game plan. So here's the combined numbers of Adlei, Raunchman, Anthony Santander and Gunner Henderson this weekend. Adley was one for fourteen, Santandero was two for fourteen. Gunner Henderson was zero for ten this weekend. Now you're going into this weekend and you're like, I'm circling three names in the lineup that we want to keep down and that we want to go after. Well, they did that for the most part, like they did their job on the mound to shut down the Orioles, but it didn't really seem to matter, mostly because Cedric Mullins due he's on my shitless. Now I've conferred I had never had a problem with Cedric Mullens and personally absolutely don't have a problem with Cedric Mullens, but he's on my shitless because of Sunday. 00:10:42 Speaker 2: Now, just objectively talking, I think he is supposed to be an A plus dude. So it's not real hate that we have towards Cedric Mullins, but the pure pain he caused all Mariners fans on Sunday, that's where it's stemming from. I mean, that was the catch of the year he made against Type France. I haven't seen a better catch this season. 00:11:03 Speaker 1: Like, the game was won, the Mariners won the game, the ball was over the fence. 00:11:08 Speaker 2: Well, that would have tied it. Canzone's homer in that scenario if it goes out, wins it. But you're right that essentially they would have had back to back home runs to win it. And Mullins went way over the wall to take that thing back. My goodness, and then he comes up in extras hits a ball a million feet foul and we're like, who that almost went out, man, that would have been bad. And then a couple of pitches later he actually straightens it out and just Yanks went over the yard. 00:11:34 Speaker 1: Sad. That's all I have to say. 00:11:35 Speaker 2: Said. 00:11:36 Speaker 1: A good job for the Orioles, man, I mean, they are the most clutched team in baseball. They there's no uh, what's the right word. It's no mystery why they've won all these close games or twenty two and eleven, I believe now in one run games. And you know, as we've seen as Mariner fans the last couple of years, sometimes you don't have to be overwhelmingly better than the opponent. You just need to do all the little things right when it matters the most. And in these six games between the Orioles and the Mariners, Orioles have really put on a masterclass of doing the little things right when it matters to most. I mean, just look at how they originally took the lead on Sunday, throughout the bullshit Bach call. But we're just talking about a play at the plate where there's an exact right read by was Mateo on third base? Yeah, Mateo's on third base, and it hits a little bit little dribbler back to Munos. Munnos executes his pitch, gets awful contact off of it, and just dribbled in the exact right spot to his left and allows Mateo to come home and score by by this much, by by by a hair length. But that's what sometimes these teams do. You don't need to overpower them. You just need to do the right things at the right times and you'll win games. And the Orioles have done that game. 00:12:58 Speaker 2: Of benches, they say it, and it could not of rain more true than this weekend between the Bunt the Robs Homer. I mean even on Saturday when the Mariners stranded a few on base when they had chances to score game of inches. Yes, the Orioles are very annoying. Good team and they've deserved everything they've gotten this year, but man, they have been a pain in the rear end of the Mariners. Before we get to our second storyline, here quick word from our friends. It's Simply Seattle. Make sure guys to go over and both check out and shop at Simply Seattle. It is where you can get all your best gear for all your Mariners apparel. I mean, it's the go to place. You see it all the time. You see people wearing their stuff around for a reason. TJ and I are planning on getting a bunch of Simply Seattle stuff. Make sure to go over there buy your gear from Simply Seattle. They really do such a great job. I mean they put their own unique spin on things. They put some really fun titles on shirts. They also have some of the unique you know, throwback logos. I mean, their designs are just to die for. So if you want to go check them out and get some gear over at Simply Seattle, which you should, you can get a little bit of a discount because you can use our code Marine fifteen to head over there and get fifteen percent off of your purchase. Again, that's Marine fifteen to get fifteen percent off. 00:14:14 Speaker 1: Wow, do you think you could get fifteen percent off some ballard gear? 00:14:21 Speaker 2: If ballard? If Simply Seattle is going to make some ballard gear, That's where I'm going to get it. I mean, I know we talked about, oh where can I find some ballad gear earlier in the show. If Simply Seattle's got ballad gear, there we go. It's right up our It's right up our alley. I'll use our code. I'll go get a shirt. 00:14:35 Speaker 1: There we go. Answers your question for you look at us using the old Noggins. 00:14:44 Speaker 3: This fall, stream your favorites and discover more with Disney Plus, Hulu and ESPN Plus together watch the highly anticipated new season of Loki and see the ghost materialize in Haunted Mansion on Disney Plus. Catch more frights with the Boogeyman, an American horror story Delegate on Hulu and on ESPN Plus. Get into the action with college football and NFL. All of these and more streaming now. Get the Disney Bundle with plans starting at nine to ninety nine a month, plans with ESPN Plus starting at fourteen ninety nine a month. Terms apply. See Disney Bundle dot com for details. 00:15:25 Speaker 2: Okay, second storyline here. George Kirby was as good as any pitcher can possibly be on Saturday, yet they lost. 00:15:36 Speaker 1: Is that his best? Is that his best performance ever? 00:15:42 Speaker 2: I can't quite put it over the seven innings against the Astros, just because the setting they were in, the implications of the game. I can't put it over that Astro start, but I would put it at number two. 00:15:55 Speaker 1: Why don't we think of this from a stuff perspective? First of all, Brandon Hyde of the Orioles said that is the best pitch game he has seen this season against the Orioles period, the best one. And I'm not like that's not bs. I mean, we're talking about George Kirby sitting ninety eight ninety nine miles an hour with his four seam fastball, impeccable command, with his sinker that he was putting wherever he wants, a sharp breaking ball, and a splitter that he was throwing eighty five miles an hour. That was just diving out of the strike zone, all four pitches with impeccable command wherever he wanted it, throwing you about two takes harder than he normally does in one of the biggest nights in Seattle franchise history, retiring Felix Hernandez into the Mariners Hall of Fame. I can't think of many qualify anything else that you really qualify beside stakes over that in terms of measuring how good George Kirby has been, that's that's pretty insane. Like I think if you just took George Kirby's face off that and said, Okay, yeah, Pitcher's gonna have impeccable command of four pitches. He walks less than at per nine, throws ninety nine miles an hour as well, you'd be like, sounds like an MLB the show player, But no, he's real. 00:17:09 Speaker 2: Little side note, I cannot even count the amount of times on Saturday I both had to hear being at the game and sitting on Twitter seeing what a way to honor Felix Hernandez just just so perfect, such a perfect way to honor him by not giving him any run support. I mean, I swore it must have been one hundred plus times between Twitter and being at the game hearing that statement. I mean, every single person you could possibly imagine was making it, and it was right. 00:17:37 Speaker 1: Brand there's a layup. I'm sorry, Like it was a layup. 00:17:41 Speaker 2: Yes, Like, could you imagine a. 00:17:43 Speaker 1: More Felix Shark start than throwing nine shutout and losing one nothing in extra innings? No, so exactly. So I mean like, I'm sorry, but it was a layup. 00:17:54 Speaker 2: It was a total layup. I'm not saying people are wrong. George Kirby leads baseball in whip by the way. He also leads baseball in walks per nine. He leads baseball in strikeout to walk ratio. I don't think any of that should surprise anybody, considering how little he walks people, how good he is at getting swings and misses, the stuff that he has. It's been a ridiculous season for the guy. I mean, he has been genuinely one of the best pitchers in baseball this season. 00:18:21 Speaker 1: Listen to these stats. Dog last five starts for George Kirby thirty two innings, a one to nine to seven ERA, thirty eight strikeouts, three walks, a two point one seven fielding independent pitching, a whip of zero point seventy five. Opponents are hitting just one point eighty four against him in this stretch. And if we look at his strikeouts and walks on a rate basis, that is a thirty one nearly a thirty two percent k rate and a two and a half percent walk rate. Is that not absurd? 00:19:00 Speaker 2: I mean that's slam dunk cy young stuff. If you do that over a full season. 00:19:04 Speaker 1: I mean that's stuff. Nobody in the league does that stuff. To look at a thirty two percent strikeout rate next to a two and a half percent walk rate, like that's it's almost never been done in baseball history. 00:19:17 Speaker 2: Never. We used to joke when Kirby was making his way through the miners with how little he would walk people, how often he would strike guys out, even early on when he was debuting and just seeing the command that he had along with the pure stuff, we would joke and say, this guy's the next Max Scherzer. Now, can we promise you he's gonna sit here and win multiple Cy youngs? Obviously not, but the profile of what he can be when he is at his absolute peak. I'm sorry, but it's not that far off. 00:19:47 Speaker 1: He at his peak is an eight. Yeah, that's not disputable. I don't know how you can watch what he did on Saturday and say anything else. 00:19:56 Speaker 2: No, his peak is a perennial Cy Young contender. That's who he is. Yes, he is that good. 00:20:02 Speaker 1: Now is his peak the best pitcher in this rotation? 00:20:05 Speaker 2: Yes? 00:20:06 Speaker 1: I say yes as well. Yeah, yeah, Luis was pretty special on Friday, don't get me wrong, But Kirby's peaks a little bit higher. 00:20:16 Speaker 2: Who are you starting in game one? 00:20:18 Speaker 3: Now? 00:20:19 Speaker 2: If there's a playoff series. 00:20:20 Speaker 1: It's still Louise. 00:20:23 Speaker 2: I could be talked into either argument, but I. 00:20:26 Speaker 1: Agree because whichever one doesn't, I would say, get the extra start, say start a game one, game four, Game seven is pitching the rest of the game out of the bullpen? What? 00:20:38 Speaker 4: Yeah? 00:20:38 Speaker 1: Say? Well that's fine. 00:20:42 Speaker 2: Now we do have to talk about the end of this George Kirby start because the way he reacted is not the way you expect somebody to react after throwing nine shutout innings. Let's just read this Ryan Divish tweet, which, by the way, front of the pod, Ryan Divish, there's not many beat writers out there that are better Twitter than he is, he tweets. George Kirby comes off the mound to catch the last out of the top of the ninth in foul territory. For those who don't remember, he caught that pop up in foul territory to end the top of the ninth inning. He spikes the ball in disgust and then fires his glove against the wall. He and home played umpire Adam Beck won't be having beers together anytime soon. 00:21:27 Speaker 1: Now. Instead of George and Adam Beck having beers, can we get a Ryan Devish George Kirby sit down session with multiple beers and lots of storytelling. I think that would be pretty entertaining. 00:21:42 Speaker 2: Would he agree to something like that? So here's one of the things I've learned about George Kirby just from watching him develop into one of the better big leaguers, one of the better big league pitchers in the game, but also just seeing him on a more regular basis, both being out at the ballpark and seeing him just do postgame media sessions. I don't think he really likes the media or talking to the media all that much. So to get him to agree to do a sit down interview like away from the field, I don't know. That seems like it might take some coordination, to say the least. 00:22:13 Speaker 1: That's why I said there needs to be beers involved, because, like you said, he is, he's not the biggest fans of the media. However that means he is probably has a lot pent up. I mean, this is just tinfoil hat going on, and this is probably my brain being cooked from sitting inside my ninety degree apartment right now. But I feel like George has got some some things he would like to get off his chest, but doesn't because he doesn't shows his outbursts to the media all that often. I do think it's It's curious, though. We see the camera in the tenth inning and it pans to George Kirby in the dugout watching his team, and the only thing I think about is, like, man, he looks pissed. 00:22:57 Speaker 2: I mean, that part may be warranted, thinking I just threw nine shutout and we still haven't won this game. But if you watch any George Kirby press conference, postgame presser, even on the starts, he pitches well in I mean, he just looks like he does not want to be sitting there in any way, shape or form. I'm not saying he's the only player that doesn't like doing media, but there are guys that can fake it a little bit better than he does. I mean, he looks genuinely furious to be sitting there just about every time he's sitting there. 00:23:27 Speaker 1: Next time we have Pitching Ninja on Rob Freeman, we should we should ask him the secret to crack in a smile out of George Kirby, because he did he got he got him to smile a little bit when they did their sit down before the season. 00:23:41 Speaker 2: Maybe there's certain people he likes. I mean, look, Pitching Ninja is so widely loved by players, media, fans, everybody, that maybe that's somebody he feels like he trusts. So maybe he's more comfortable talking with somebody like Rob. I don't know, he's you know, he does not go out of his way to talk to the media, and of course we're sitting here. I mean, this is our speculation. Just both for watching him and being at the ballpark. We have not gotten a chance to personally talk to him. We have tried to be fair. It has not led to much success, but that is just our takeaways thus far of how he seems. 00:24:20 Speaker 1: But it's okay to be honest as long as he pitches. Well, he could be a total ass. 00:24:26 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're not saying he is. Again, this is just what we've kind of seen. But that is a little bit of a unusual reaction this. I know the team hasn't won the game yet, but when you throw nine shutout innings and your first response is to chuck your glove and anger, you don't see that every day. 00:24:47 Speaker 1: No you don't. And the thing is I was trying to decipher, is he just fired up in excitement or is he really pissed at Adam Beck that he threw that just beautiful front door two steamer on inside corner to Adleie Rutchman that was clearly a strike and that it didn't get wrung up. It could be some of both, but I do think it's interesting. And also I will say though that the wording of Ryan's tweet, if you didn't watch the game at all, you would think that like George Kirby went back there and like threw a gatorade bucket against the wall. He didn't, or at least not that we know of. But yeah, late game emotions, I guess, is all I have to say. I just do think it's very, very fascinating as someone people will get to now see George Kirby in person a little bit closer up. And you know, when you see people, you take notes. Do you evaluate every person that walks past you. 00:25:44 Speaker 2: Here's my one little tidbit I've taken away. And again, maybe this is totally wrong, maybe this has no truth to it whatsoever, But this is just a theory I now have from enough built up data points. So most guys do take their time when they walk out to the outfield to go play long toss, when they walk out to the bullpen, when they get on the field for batting practice, they take their time, which is normal. George Kirby runs everywhere he goes. He runs on the field, off the field, and he does it at a very brisk pace, usually until he gets into the dugout or halfway through the dugout. And my little theory on this, again, this is not confirmed I'm not saying this is one hundred percent true. This is just our little theory is he does this to avoid talking to the media. 00:26:33 Speaker 4: You're not. 00:26:34 Speaker 1: I don't think you're wrong. It wouldn't be wouldn't be totally shocking for someone, as I guess, we've kind of speculated to do that. It's really not a bad strategy. It's just oh, yeah, I got a meeting, I'm in a hurry. 00:26:49 Speaker 2: Well, but I don't even think he says that. Maybe he does to some people, but usually he's just running to seems like avoid people. And again, he's not the only person that probably doesn't like talking to the media. But when you spend some time at the ballpark, you take some things away and this could be totally wrong, it could have no validity to it whatsoever. It's just our take on it. 00:27:10 Speaker 1: That's why we appreciate Ryan Davis, because he's able to soak in all these things and we get to talk to him. We really do learn a lot, and he sheds a lot of light on his podcast as well, which is extremely helpful. 00:27:21 Speaker 2: George. We will say, if this is wrong and you want to dispute this, you have a platform to do it. You can come on here, or even if you don't want to be on a full podcast, we'll give you sixty seconds out at the ballpark. We will ask you one of the questions that we do on the mini mic, and one of them can be why do you run everywhere you go on and off the field. Maybe the reason is you think it's a superstition that helps you pitch well. And if that's true, then we're all for it. We'll hear it. We just want you to tell us. 00:27:46 Speaker 1: Low how exciting was it that we have a Major League Baseball Hall of Famer on this episode today? Jason Stark so nice to have joined us, throw around some ideas, some theories he had about baseball could be like, talked a little bit about the Hall of Fame as well. Fantastic conversation and he couldn't have been nicer to do it. 00:28:08 Speaker 2: He was awesome. I mean, we always talk about how great so many of our interviews are. He is so in depth, he is well thought out with his ideas. We talk a bit about the Hall of Fame too, which obviously he spends a lot of time on. Such a cool perspective and one we don't often get a lot of times on this podcast where we go more national but have a really fun conversation. There is Mariners stuff mixed in there too. 00:28:31 Speaker 1: Let's get to our interview with Jason Stark. All right, we welcome on Jason Stark, a writer at The Athletic, also a book author, and he's the host of Starkville on the Athletic Baseball Show. Jason, we appreciate you taking some time to join us. We've been trying to track you down for a few weeks now. It was All Star Game and then it was Hall of Fame, but we finally got you now. So I mentioned Hall of Fame there, and I thought this would be a good spot to start off. Are you going to ever get tired of going to Cooper's Town? 00:29:03 Speaker 4: Are you kidding me? It's the Magic Kingdom? I mean it like I've always thought that anyway. It's one of those places where if you love baseball like I love baseball, it really infuses that love all over again. But now that I'm actually in at least the writers wing, you know, I get invited back every year and I just can't even describe to you guys what that's like. You know, I get to hang out in the Oda, Saga, the bar, the back veranda, and there's Hall of Fame players everywhere. And you know, the way those guys treat me is amazing. The conversations I get into phenomenal. It just it's just an unforgettable experience every year. And you know, Tim Kirkshin got in last year and I called him up like three days in advance and said, I don't know what you've got planned. You have to make the effort to get there because it's just the coolest thing to be able to do that every year. 00:30:12 Speaker 2: You mentioned some of those conversations you have in Cooperstown. Is there one over the years that sticks out to you in particular? 00:30:21 Speaker 4: There have been a lot. I canna tell you that this year. There is a conversation. It's a casual conversation with Eddie Murray which he was trying to tell me a couple of people that he could have been Otani, only not just as a switch hitter, as a switch pitcher. He could have pitched with both arms. And does that sound true to you? I'm gonna guess probably not. I'm gonna think they wouldn't let him do it. He said, no, they would never let me do any of that stuff. So okay, but like that's the kind of stuff you get locked into, and it's mind blowing. 00:31:04 Speaker 1: Really. Once you get a plaque, can you just say whatever you want? So, like, for example, you're in there and you say, okay, yeah, you know what. In high school it was actually pretty good and I thought about going pro, but I just ended up being too good at writing. 00:31:22 Speaker 4: I've never had that conversation and never will. I Mean, the hardest thing to comprehend is being in the room with the greatest players who ever lived. I'll tell you a story. Okay, So twenty nineteen was the year I got to give my speech. So you wait in a ballroom at the Otis Saga Hotel and then you take a bus to the event. So I was first one there, of course, because I'm not gonna be late for my own speech. So I'm just sitting there chit chatting with some other people from the Hall of Fame, and now Ken Griffy walks in. He plops down at the table, and now here they come, you know, And I can't even mention all the names of all the people who were there, but it just suddenly hit me. The greatest players who ever lived are in this room, and also I'm there, and it was really hard to even breathe thinking about that. So I got up. I kind of went over to the side of the room and looked around and took in the scene and thought, I need to take a walk or something. So I started, I'll just go to the men's room. So I started walking down the hall to the men's room. And now Jeff Bagwell gets right beside me and he's walking with me, and he says, how are you doing? And I said, Jeff, you know what I'm doing, Okay, I'm just trying to figure out what I'm doing in that room with the greatest players who ever lived. And he said to me, oh, me too. Hold on a second, you realize you're one of them, right, And he said, yeah, yeah, I know I'm in the Hall of Fame, but I'm not a Hall of Famer like those guys are Hall of Famers and those are. You know, that's the experience of being there if you're me. But it's not just me who's in awe of some of the people in the room. It's it's a lot of those players, a lot. 00:33:31 Speaker 1: How many ceremonies is that now for. 00:33:33 Speaker 4: You, Well, we had a pandemic in the middle of it, but you're talking about since twenty nineteen. 00:33:40 Speaker 1: No, I meant just overall healthy times you've been doing. 00:33:43 Speaker 4: I don't know, you know what I was at ESPN. It was always right around the trade deadline, and so it was very difficult for me to go back then. So I only went to I'm gonna say maybe three before I left ESPN. But since then I've been to I think five out of six. Only missed the one right after the pandemic because it was on a Wednesday afternoon and they didn't even have any place for us to stay. So other than that, so I've been to everyone since twenty seventeen except for that one, and I don't anticipate missing anymore. Ever, something really crazy would have to happen. 00:34:27 Speaker 2: So what's the best speech you've heard in all your years there? And why is it? Edgar? 00:34:35 Speaker 4: Hey, I was really excited about Edgar. I had a lot of family from Seattle Mariners fans who were just in awe of being able to meet Edgar, take their picture with Edgar. See Edgar go in. But he's not the answer to the question. I'll be honest with you. The best player speech I ever heard was this year Scott Rowland. A lot of us have talked about this. Honestly, never heard a better speech because it wasn't a MEMI me speech. It wasn't a thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you speech. It was about how growing up in his household with his mom and dad and you know, the life they created, the advice his father gave him, how that led to this moment. And it was hilarious at times, it was really emotional at times, and it was so real. You know, like those are the things about that speech that you most wanted to be I wrote one of those speeches. There's nothing harder than given that speech because it's really difficult to know what you should say, what you should leave out, who you should honor, who you should think. It's it's really hard. And the you know, the other thing is if you're not happy with it, you don't get to do it again next year. You only get one time. So I'm going to answer Scott wrong. Is that Okay? 00:36:04 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great. I mean, he's a Hall of Famer for a reason. I mean, now I feel like I have to go back and watch this speech because I watched it in parts, but I guess I haven't watched the full extensive thing, and now you're kind of itching and we go back and watch it. 00:36:17 Speaker 4: I tell everybody to watch it. You know, if you got thirteen minutes or whatever, it was well worth your time. 00:36:22 Speaker 1: Fantastic voting wise, I would say, when we're talking about the Hall of Fame, if we're looking out into the future of what kind of trends you see in terms of Hall of Fame voting in the next ten fifteen years, What do you think is going to be the biggest difference between I would say maybe last decade and the next maybe two decades in terms of what voters are going to look for voting guys in. 00:36:48 Speaker 4: Here is what I see. The You know, we're gonna leave out all the ped Era plot lines and all that stuff, but here's what I see. You know, the old magic numbers that baseball writers have always used to vote. They're not going to be dead, but they're not going to ever mean again what they used to mean. Three hundred wins. Who's doing that again? Right? You know you're still gonna have home runs and stuff like that. Three thousand hits is still I think attainable, but I think we're trending toward more. Edgar Martinez's right, not not the counting numbers being the big numbers that determine whether you get in, but the slash lines, the big peaks, the ways that you can measure dominance now with information that is available to us now versus then, You're already seeing a transform the voting. Edgar is a big example. Larry Walker was a great example. Scott Roland, I think another example. So the influx of modern information is already changing the way we look at what is a Hall of Fame player, So longevity isn't going to do it anymore. 00:38:11 Speaker 2: Okay, you mentioned Edgar. I've got one for you. Did Edgar have to walk so big Poppy can run? And I say that because when you look at Edgar and Poppy's numbers compared next to each other, Edgar beats them out in a lot of categories and average and WRC plus and war there's a few others. But it took him ten years to get in. It took Poppy one. 00:38:33 Speaker 4: Well, I think there are reasons for that. You know, it is the Hall of Fame, and David Ortiz is a famous person just is it's one of the most recognizable famous people walk in the earth. You know, this isn't fair to Edgar, but he also did what he did on a bigger stage. Boston versus Seattle, Sorry, the Red Sox Yankees moments, the busting of the curse, the way he played in October, the counting numbers are a little bigger. So I think he's got all that going for him. But I do think Edgar helped him, I really do. I don't think David O'tez is a first ballot Hall of Famer if Edgar doesn't doesn't plow that field form. Does that make sense? 00:39:25 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I mean there never been a dh before Edgar, So I always wondered how long it would take Poppy beforehand, Because you're right, even though Edgar had his one big clutch postseason moment, it was nowhere near the amount that Poppy racked up in a bigger market. And then when you combine all the stuff that you just mentioned, Yeah makes sense. I think that's a fair take. 00:39:46 Speaker 4: Yeah. And you know the other problem with Edgar's greatest postseason moment was you're talking about ninety five against the Yankees, right, right, that was the year that they put all the games on at the same time. Not everybody got to even see that game or see that moment. It was a dumb idea, but really like it really hurt Edgar. You know, I wrote a book got a decade ago on the most underrated and overrated players of all time. You know, my most underrated DH of all time was right Edgar and wrote a lot about that game in that moment. And you know, the idea that a guy could get that hit to beat the New York Yankees in October and have nobody remember it. It's like some of most mind blowing statement you could ever make about any player. And that that kind of summed up why Edgar took so long to get there. I think he just he just quietly did his thing for a really long time. And I don't know why we didn't notice, but I'm glad we finally did. 00:40:57 Speaker 1: I joked when like this, this this point has been made so many times, but if Edgar was wearing pinstripes, he'd have a monument in centerfield the Yankee Stadium, Like I think that's like around there, right and that, and that's just sort of the difference of perception, like, I'm. 00:41:15 Speaker 4: Sorry that perception enters into it. I hope we get to a world sometimes where it's not so much about perception and it's more about what you did, and everybody votes different, you know, just the way democracy works. 00:41:30 Speaker 1: If I'm going to ask you one last Hall of Fame question for me, in terms of the current pool of players in Major League Baseball, who do you think is an under the radar Hall of Famer in the future. 00:41:43 Speaker 4: Yeah, I just wrote about this. I wrote two different commns. I think if I remember right, the two guys who I wrote who that were already Hall of famers that have gotten incredible pushback on Joey Vado guests on the most recent Startville by the way, and Zach Cranky. This seems to bible people's minds that those guys are Hall of famers. You know, maybe it's because Zach Cranky's one in twelve right now. It's not very helpful, but Joey Vado led his league in on base percentage seven times, and don't we know now that's as valuable as batting average. If he was a seven time batting champ, the discussion would be over. Everybody who has led his league in on base that many times is either a Hall of Famer or a steroid guy. And basically everybody who's ever had either their careers Joey Vado or Zach Greenk is a Hall of Famer. If they're not some pe, if there's not some peed connection, or they're not still active. I think it's really simple if you look at it in those terms. 00:42:55 Speaker 2: I've got a one more Hall of Fame question for you too before we move on. Are you pro at a ped wing to the Hall of Fame eventually? And I asked, because somebody put it like this a couple of years back, and it actually resonated with me for a long time. They said, the Hall of Fame is meant to tell a story, not to tell you who the babysitters of baseball were, And that was his argument for putting the ped wing in. So my take is, it's supposed to be a museum of your fondest memories of baseball. And if you're telling fans, oh, the guy that hit the most home runs of all time, oh, he's dead to us, and I don't know. I kind of scratched my head at that. 00:43:30 Speaker 4: I think I might be the first person who ever wrote that, that's what a museum ought to do. Museums tell the story of a certain period of time as accurately as completely as possible. And why don't we try that because the Hale of Purity? How's that working out? You know, I'm a voter and trying to suffer through the ped era ballots and people expecting us to know exactly who did what and what it meant. Uh, that was a bad gig because you know, if they were if they would just tell us here's everybody that used peds, Okay, then fine, we'll keep all the cheaters out. But that's not how it works. You know that the discussion of that era seems to center around maybe ten or twelve players and what they did when, when in fact, we know that hundreds of players were doing something. And so don't you think that we've already elected players who use peds to the Hall of Fame? Is there any doubt? Right? 00:44:40 Speaker 2: For sure? 00:44:41 Speaker 4: Yeah? So we're like, we we're bad at being Hall of Purity voters. So I just decided at a certain point, at least for the guys before testing, I was going to vote for the greatest players of their era, and let the Hall of Fame figure out how it wanted to handle that. If you wanted to put something on the plaque, the Barry Bonds hit more home runs than anyone who ever played, but great do that. If you want to put up a sign that says this was the ped era. Certain players were alleged to have blah blah blah. The military report said blah blah blah. So bear that in mind. It's hard to do. It's hard to word the plaque or hard to word that sign, but we're just in denial that that stuff existed, that those players played baseball, and it's just just odd to me that you could have a Hall of Fame that apparently is never going to include the guy with the most home runs in the history of baseball, the picture with the most cy youngs in the history of baseball, the hit oro broke Roger Maris's hallowed record for different reasons, the guy got the most hits in history. You know, the football Hall of Fame would they donor all those players and let people decide on their own what to make of it. I think the Baseball Hall of Fame at some point has to get to that. It's probably going to be after we're all dead, you know, and all the emotions of that time have passed. That's my guess. 00:46:14 Speaker 1: Speaking of legends, there's this idea that was suggested at All Star Weekend that you broached into. It's your pin tweet on your Twitter profile, a legend's home run derby, and it just like pops a light into everyone's head of wow, and personally for me, I'm like, well, as long as it replaces the celebrity softball game, I'm all ears for it. But we're sitting here looking at this idea, and I was rereading the article yesterday as we're getting ready for this, and I'm sitting here and thinking this as you got to talk to some people at All Star Weekend about this and hear all of the you're all the reaction from it is something like this feasible. 00:46:54 Speaker 4: I think it's going to happen. To be honest with you, you know, the story of it is incredible. Really. The whole thing happened so organically, where Ken Griffy Jr. Wanders over to this set of MLB to night before the home run derby and Albert Pools is sitting there and you know, a couple different points. Sounds like he thinks he could still win it, enter and win it. It changed the format a little bit, but he said, give me a year to train, he could do it. And Albert said, you do it, I'll do it. So now after this is over, like they're all kind of sitting around the production trailer and Jim Tomy sends a text and says, if they're in, I'm in now. Albert goes for a kind of a walk to get some air, and he runs into Big Poppy and he tells Big Poppy and he said, I'm in, okay, and so he like, you can see already that these guys their blood is pumping, and if they will buy in, I don't see how it's not doable in some form. I mean the biggest thing, well two big things. One is somebody's got to sponsor it and pay them, okay. So the second thing is you can't do the format of the current home run derby because you know, like, what's griffy now, he's like fifty fifty three fifty three. You know, think about how many times Julio swung the bat ninety times in three minutes. He separates both shoulders. So we don't want that, okay, but we do want them to swing. And so my my proposal was the same format as the old home run derby, as many home runs you can hit before you make three outs, which is a non homer, and then just you know, alternate. I think it'd be a really cool event that people would go nuts for, and I honestly don't see why it can happen. And like the strong impression I got when I wrote that is there's a lot of momentum already for it to happen. All I can tell you is one of the first people I ran into when I got to Cooperstown this year was Jim Toby, who I had talked to for this piece, and he looked at me and he said, hey, that Calum you wrote, that's got a lot of traction. So Jim Tomy says that it must be true. 00:49:35 Speaker 1: That means Bonds has to be in this. I was like, there's no way they can keep him out of this. There's no way. 00:49:41 Speaker 4: I'm totally fine with Bonds McGuire. Whoever, I don't care what people's issues are. I want to see Barry Bonce. 00:49:52 Speaker 1: I did so like, we're less than I think a decade removed from him beating Christian Yelich and John Carlos Stanton a home run derby on the backfields of spring training. I do remember that story that he already beat them. So you're not telling me he couldn't win one of these things. I think he could. 00:50:11 Speaker 4: Yeah. Uh, his hacks eye is a little small now, but just a little bit. Pretty talented human, that's all. 00:50:18 Speaker 2: I've got one request for this. I mean, first off, this would be such an awesome idea. I'd be all for it. I think you're absolutely right that fans would be all for it, and a lot of people would tune in. There might be a little bit of Mariner's bias behind this, but I feel like we could pick up some steam with this idea. Let's get Eachiero in this thing. I mean I always wanted to see him in the derby forever because everybody thinks he could have been good at it, and he still takes batting practice all the time and he's still working out. I think if he was in this he would have a shot. 00:50:46 Speaker 4: I would love that, you know. I used to write all the time about how everybody on those teams wanted e tro to be in the derby and he just wouldn't do it. But like you're seeing such a fun loving side of the tro now that he's not actually playing, I don't see why you couldn't twist his arm with it with again with the right format. 00:51:05 Speaker 1: Right, Where do we draw the line at legend? Because I feel like we only have a certain pool to pick from in this and we don't want the exact same players doing it every single year. So for to not get repetitive, where are we drawing the line at? Like what level of former athlete are we going. 00:51:23 Speaker 4: To light in here? 00:51:26 Speaker 3: What? 00:51:27 Speaker 4: Okay? So like, what what's your big fear? Like Dan Wilson would be in it or something? 00:51:34 Speaker 1: Well, it's it's Dan, Like Dan Wilson is a meritors legend. But does Dan Wilson would he represent on an All Star stage and someone else's work besides T Mobile? 00:51:43 Speaker 4: Yeah, you want more than that? In Hall of Famers, that would be idal, right, you could say multi time All Stars, former Derby winners, that kind of thing. Like when I was going through uh, you know, I kind of made up some teams and I would I was like my first criteria, did you win a Derby? And that that's that's always a good selling point. Doesn't this sort of fit the criteria? You know what a non legend is when you see one, So somebody have to have veto power he wanted. Should we give it to Griffy? He's pretty sure nobody is a legend, so he'd be good. There are amount of is there. 00:52:28 Speaker 2: A cutoff time you'd have to be retired out of baseball before entering this thing? Or are you all for Lendon Pooholes? And right now? 00:52:35 Speaker 4: Despite you, I don't care. I don't care, like you know. I think there's gonna be a lot of pure pressure type stuff, and I mean it is kind of an advantage. Albert won around in the home Run Derby last year, and then he would be in the Legends Derby next year, so it's a little shaky, but I personally, we don't care. If you know, if we let in two guys who just retired and six guys who retired ten years ago, and the guys who just retired always win, we could just as we go along, just get it going. 00:53:18 Speaker 1: Again, as long as it replaces the celebrity softball games. But I think it's going to be a massive hit. Just take those sponsors and give it to them. 00:53:27 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's not gonna happen. I'm gonna guess it's not gonna happen. But why can't they co exist? I think they could coexist, you know. I've always had this idea that the All Star Game could be bigger, that the whole week could be like a festival of baseball, and one night could be Legends Home Run Derby Night. There are a lot of places you could put it a lot, So would you put it before Futures Game, celebrity softball game, like you start all Start week on a Friday rather than a Saturday, that sort of thing. I'm open to anything. I did like Greg Amsinger's idea that you could you could have it right after the Futures Game, so all those guys who played in the Futures Game could sit around the field with their families and their friends and cheer on these legends. You know. The way the non home run derby players do at the derby definitely adds to the event. But I don't know how many times I have to say this loud. I'm open anything. I really am. 00:54:27 Speaker 1: Okay, one last topic I want to broach before we wrap up. Something you proposed at All Star Week was what are we doing with the pitch clock in the playoffs? This is going to be a hot button issue with the first year of the new rules in the playoff format. I was kind of surprised though, that you got a very You got a lot of pushback for the idea of of the of either lengthening the pitch clock or eliminating it in spots in the playoffs, which I think is kind of kind of fascinating. What was the most interesting response did you get from that? 00:55:02 Speaker 4: Well, I've had a lot of brilliant ideas of my day. I'm used to that response. Not much that I propose ever attracts anybody's interest. But my idea was you have each team would have three played appearances in each postseason game where they could turn off the pitch clock, and I'm thinking they would save them for those big moments late in games. You know, the O Tawny versus Trout moment at the end of the WBC. I was thinking about the Bryce Harper at that last year in the NLCS where you hit the home run that put the Phillies in the World Series, and like those moments that nobody really cares how long they last. When the drama hangs there in the night. It's so fun. And so I thought that I would get a little more support than I did. I Clayton Kershaw was not It just was not enthused at all about this. I love Clayton. I love to run this stuff by him. One of the reasons I love to run it by him is he's such a contrariant, but he's so funny about it. And so I knew, like I knew this was coming, but I just waited for him to show up at his locker. And when he got there, I wandered over and I just I was waiting for the face, the Kershaw face. So I started to lay out my idea. And here it came, like he gets this this big smile on his face and this look on his eye that basically says, boy, are you a knucklehead? But he listens to the whole thing, and then he tells me why I'm a knucklehead. So it's it's it's very entertaining the way he does it. I don't take it personally. I expect it, but he always had he always has some thoughts why it wouldn't work, and so I respect them. I think the general reason for the pushback is players feel like they've spent the whole year retooling a lifetime worth of habits and routines to get used to the way the clock affects their lives. And at this point, by the time we get to the postseason, we'll be there, They'll be there. Why should we change anything? And there's a lot of merit to that until something happens. Right as soon as one crucial at bat in the ninth inning of a postseason game turns on an automatic ball call or an automatic strike call or a bock related to these rules, everything will seem fine. Once that happens, people will be revisiting, revisiting my brilliant idea. And if they still want to think I'm a knucklehead, cool, I'm just throwing it out there because I'm just I'm just really terrified that a postseason game will be decided by a clock violation. I'm the guy like I just totally at random went to Northport, Florida for the first game of spring training, and that was the game where they had the clock off, where there was a walk off clock violation, and it was just the dumbest thing I ever saw in my life. I've had nightmares about a postseason game ending that way ever since. But even if it doesn't end that way, like you can tell me that the violations are way down, They're not down to zero, something's going to happen this postseason. Write it down. 00:58:48 Speaker 2: You're convincing me in real time here, just because I was gonna say, I feel like you barely noticed the pitch clock anymore. But now that you're mentioning the idea of what if something happens in a critical moment, I'm only a mad Twitter and all the sports talk shows and all this stuff moving forward that there's gonna be NonStop discourse about it that's gonna probably be borderline and sufferable. So maybe the three at bats here you're onto something. 00:59:13 Speaker 4: Just throwing it out there. You know it's not gonna happen. Good chance it won't happen just because I suggested it. But if they ever decide they need it, I'm there for him. 00:59:23 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, Jason, we appreciate you taking some time to join us here today. If you want to see all of Jason's brilliant ideas, you can follow him on Twitter. At Jason st that's Jason with a Y. By the way, make sure to spell it correctly. That's very important. It's also got some books that you can go read and you can also hear them on the Athletic Baseball Shit Athletic Baseball Show. Jason, we appreciate you taking us some time to join us. 00:59:47 Speaker 4: Today and Jeded, guys, thanks a lot. 00:59:53 Speaker 2: That was an awesome conversation with Jason Stark. We appreciate all the time he gave us. We appreciate a well thought out, in depth answers. We hope you guys enjoyed it because we really walked away having a blast with that conversation. With that, that'll just about wrap up this edition of the Marine Layer podcast. You guys know the drill. If you want to listen to the full form podcast, you can do so on Apple, Spotify, Google, and Amazon. If you do that, go follow us, download our episodes, give us that five star review that helps us big time, and then head over to our video side too. Watch us on YouTube, subscribe, like comment, turn the notification bells on that way, you know when we post a video or a new show. If you want to follow us on social media, Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, YouTube shorts. Go follow those channels at Marine Layer Pod. That's TJ. I'm Lyle. As always, we thank you guys for tuning in. We'll talk to you soon.