Episode 474: What If The Mariners Acquired A Different Orioles Infielder? (Mailbag)

00:00:00 Speaker 1: Welcome to episode number 474 of the Marine Layer podcast. It's a mailbag episode, so we'll open it up and answer your best listener questions. 00:00:08 Speaker 2: Your guys' reminder before we get going here, just make sure to download these podcast episodes if you're listening. Please rate and review and leave it five stars when you do so. You can also find us at our website, which is marinelayerpod.com. You can go get your podcast merch that's there. Our episodes are all there. Our Patreon's there. And then go check us out on social media too, which is everywhere at marinelayerpod. 00:00:29 Speaker 1: Let's get it rolling. And we welcome you to this episode of the Marine Ladder Podcast, part of the Just Baseball Podcast Network, recording here on Tuesday evening, October 20th. And a reminder, before we get into this mailbag, if you want priority on these mailbag episodes, The place to go is our Patreon. That's patreon.com slash marine layer pod, where you get access to mailbag priority. You get your questions answered every single week, add free episodes and the opportunity to get on a video call with Lyle and I once a month to answer all of your Mariners questions. So if that sounds like something that is interesting to you, go to our Patreon at patreon.com slash marine layer pod. We're taping this a bit in advance of Friday because we are in Milwaukee for world series media day, but, Episodes roll on, of course. So let's start off with Ethan on Patreon. Ethan's question is, how would you guys feel about going after Nick Gonzalez or Jordan Westberg on the trade market? 00:01:39 Speaker 2: Wow, TJ's on it today. No BSing around, no small talk to start. He's just, nope, let's answer people's questions. We're for the people. 00:01:46 Speaker 1: Well, I could say something here at the start of the episode that could be just totally irrelevant. It's like, guys, what the hell are you talking about by the time it gets to Friday? Yeah. 00:01:57 Speaker 2: Totally fair. 00:01:58 Speaker 1: So unless, I mean, somehow Nick Gonzalez and Jordan Westberg get traded before we get to the World Series, which I don't think is physically possible. No. That's the only way we get burned by just answering the people's questions. Fair. 00:02:12 Speaker 2: And listen, we're for the people. So yeah, we'll jump right into it. Nick Gonzalez, look, had a phenomenal year in terms of average. I mean, he really took some strides at the plate this season. It was a career high in OPS from what he did at a big league level this year. It wasn't off the charts, but it was 755 to go along with a 300 average. Problem with Nick Gonzalez is, I get the idea, because you're looking for a potential third base upgrade, and the idea there is let Donovan just move around. But Gonzalez just doesn't have a whole lot of tools other than the bat alone. I mean, he really does not play great defense. He doesn't really do anything else in any other category that's that special. He doesn't... I mean, he runs pretty well. I'll give him that. 00:02:54 Speaker 1: But. 00:02:56 Speaker 2: if you're going to give up assets for a guy that has real control in Gonzalez, that feels like you could use your resources a little bit better elsewhere. 00:03:07 Speaker 1: Now on the flip side, all those things you just explained might be a reason why his, uh, his packet hit the, the cost for him. The price is not going to be that high. So like if it was something reasonable, maybe it could make sense. I don't know if, Nick Gonzalez is the type of player I'm trying to go after right now because the offensive ceiling, as you said, is not really that high. He had a season this year that was bolstered by a very, very high batting average on balls in play and not a whole lot else. So that's not something you could sit and say confidently, hey, this is going to continue going forward. It's not something he has done in the past at the big league level. So you'd be buying at his peak. And for example, If you're going to trade a starting pitcher for Nick Gonzalez, which I don't advise, but in this hypothetical scenario, let's say that is so. You're essentially trading your assets at their worst value and trading for their assets at the best value. Does that make much sense to do? I don't really think so. I mean, not if you're the Pirates, right? Oh, the Pirates, you'd do it. Yeah. 00:04:17 Speaker 2: Well, but you're saying it doesn't make sense to trade somebody at their lowest value for someone at their highest value. 00:04:23 Speaker 1: Yeah. So hear me out. Like, so the pirates just got the best version of Nick Gonzalez. The Mariners just got the worst version of George Kirby. And only in that scenario are those two equal value to trade for each other. The Mariners are getting the player who can only get worse. And the pirates are getting the player who can only get better. 00:04:44 Speaker 2: Now I get what you're saying. Yes, that does make sense. The other thing with Nick Gonzalez is, when you dive into the numbers, he's got reverse splits. So this past year, he hit well against righties. He actually OPSed about 790 against right-handed pitching. But against lefties, his OPS was well below 700. Like, it was in the 600s. So if the Mariners are looking to get better against left-handed pitching, which should be a non-starter for them to do this winter, considering they were awful with it again, yeah, I don't think Gonzalez is the guy you trade real assets for. 00:05:18 Speaker 1: Was it like a luck thing? Was it, he struck out a bunch against lefties. Like I'm about to look right now. I mean, I don't think for his career, he's all that great against lefties. I mean, it kind of looks all the same. Yeah. I mean, he walked more against lefties. He struck out less actually. Wow. To me, that just, it just screams Babbitt again. That's, that's all it is. Yeah. 00:05:42 Speaker 2: His, you know what, let me, backtrack a little bit, his career platoon splits are almost dead even. But when I say they're dead even, they're 7-0-6 versus 7-0-8. So this isn't some unbelievable bat against left-handed pitching. I just don't think the ceiling's high enough to make this one of your highlight moves of the winter. He's a fine player, but I think they can do better. 00:06:06 Speaker 1: And he's a starting caliber player. I just don't think he's a starting caliber player for the Mariners because... I just don't buy that he's going to replicate this to the amount you want. Next year he could hit 290, but he could also be a 100 WRC plus bat. And that might have helped the 2026 Mariners, but the 2027 Mariners were anticipating it, the standard being a little bit higher than that for someone you're going out and acquiring the offseason and potentially trading assets for. Right. If you were to ask me if I wanted to trade for Jordan Westberg, the answer would be yes. I would absolutely trade for Jordan Westberg. But he's going to have a spot on the Orioles. I don't know why they would trade him. You could offer up whatever you want to offer up. We talked in earlier episodes about trading for Kobe Mayo and that the scenario for that kind of works out because Westberg is coming back and he's a bit more of a complete player and has a little bit more versatility and has a longer track record so you could get Mayo while Westberg goes back and plays every day for the Orioles. Now you're asking the Orioles to play Kobe Mayo, less proven every day, and trade Jordan Westberg to you. 00:07:15 Speaker 2: This is the inverse of the last mailbag when people were asking us about Kobe Mayo. This is the inverse because now it's Westberg's spot. Yeah, I mean, Jordan Westberg's been an all-star. He's a good defender. The only thing with him is, well, let me double up on what you said. I would also absolutely love to have Jordan Westberg. The only thing is, How much can you really rely on him to be healthy at this point? If you look year by year, his all-star season in 24, he played 107 games, so he missed some real time that year. He played 85 games in 2025, so he missed about half the season. And then he missed all of 2026. So if you're the Orioles and you're getting calls on Jordan Westberg, how much are teams even going to offer? I almost... I don't think the Orioles would get the package they want for Jordan Westberg. I don't think the Mariners would offer up a ton for Jordan Westberg because you just unfortunately can't really rely on him to be healthy. It's a little bit of Brendan Donovan. When he's on the field, he's been a workhorse. He's been a catalyst offensively. He's been an all-star. He plays quality defense, but you can't rely on him to post. You can't rely on him to be on the field. 00:08:24 Speaker 1: And a similar overall value to Brendan Donovan. Like they're both two to three win players roughly. And both averaged for their career about 100 games. So if you already have one of those guys on your roster who has a little bit more versatility to him than Jordan Westberg, you might just stick with him, I'd say. Maybe the Orioles still would say they only would trade Jordan Westberg for George Kirby. So you listening to this, do you trade George Kirby to potentially get a hundred games a season from Jordan Westberg. 00:09:04 Speaker 2: More control, but you can't rely on him again to be on the field. You don't know. He might play an equal amount of, well, no, he'd play more games than Kirby would make starts. But so that math doesn't line up. But the point is you got to trade for somebody with the idea that they're going to post every day for you. And you unfortunately just can't rely on Westberg at this point to do that. 00:09:26 Speaker 1: No, I don't think he can either. I like the ideas, Ethan. There is a world where the Mariners could trade for those players. So it's not like impossible. But is it likely? 00:09:37 Speaker 2: No. 00:09:38 Speaker 1: As we talked about, it's going to be tough for the Mariners to trade this offseason. They should. They need to. But it's not going to be easy because there's not a lot of perfect fits out there. 00:09:49 Speaker 2: No, no. 00:09:50 Speaker 1: Well, ironically, no more Brandon Donovan out there on the market. Right. 00:09:55 Speaker 2: Well, say a Suzuki. Are they going to fork up the money for him? 00:09:58 Speaker 1: I mean, he's a free agent. I meant just trade. 00:09:59 Speaker 2: Oh, okay. Because, I mean. 00:10:03 Speaker 1: All that needs to happen is John Stanton open up his checkbook for that one. All right, next question comes from Thomas on Patreon. Thomas's question is, what are your guys' World Series predictions? 00:10:17 Speaker 2: So Thomas says Brewers in seven. How much are the Rays going to hit in this series? Can they get to this Brewers pitching staff? That's my concern. I'm not going to pick a clean sweep or anything like that, but I'll say Brewers in six with a chance that it goes five. 00:10:38 Speaker 1: Right there with you. Yeah. 00:10:40 Speaker 2: I think the Brewers are just the better team, and I think the Rays will hang around a bit, but I think we're going to see over these six to seven games, that the brewers are just the best team in baseball. They were from the start of the year. They were in the regular season. And I think we're going to see it at the end of the post season. 00:10:55 Speaker 1: They're just so deep, right? They have a bigger stable of arms. They have a better lineup and a deeper lineup too. Like the raise lineup. They have Yandy. They have junior Caminero, but there's not a whole lot of damage outside of that. 00:11:10 Speaker 2: A random. Meanwhile, it's those three. Yeah. 00:11:15 Speaker 1: But the Brewers seem to have a bigger stable of bats that they can throw at this tough Rays pitching staff that is just not, that the Rays just can't match. 00:11:26 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:11:26 Speaker 1: So, and the Rays have, the Brewers have the best pitcher in the series, which always helps. 00:11:31 Speaker 2: Although he might get neutralized because if he's going to go up against Drew Rasmussen, I don't know if that's a game where you say, oh, well, the Brewers are just going to take this one. I mean, Drew Rasmussen has been awesome, not just in the regular season, but postseason. There's a world they win, like, There's a world that's one of the games the Rays win, is they win the Rasmussen start. 00:11:50 Speaker 1: We also just watched the Brewers, though, chew up and spit out all the Dodgers starting pitching in a series. 00:11:55 Speaker 2: We did. 00:11:56 Speaker 1: And the Padres. 00:11:57 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Totally fair. And they might do the same thing against the Rays. But, man, Rasmussen has been dynamite. He really has. But you're right. If the Brewers are going to take Yamamoto out of the game in the third inning, who knows what they can do to other guys. It really is crazy with the Brewers. I mean, they're second in runs scored this year. They scored more runs than every team in the league except for the Cubs, and yet we're 29th in home runs. 00:12:23 Speaker 1: There are more ways to do it before people say, well, look, guys, the Brewers went all contact approach. Mariners should try something similar. Ballpark matters, too. They play in a fantastic place to hit. 00:12:38 Speaker 2: Also, the Mariners don't have the core pieces in place where you can build your team like that. The Rays do. It's just the core pieces they've ended up developing. Bryce Terang fits that mold. Guys like Garrett Mitchell fit that mold. 00:12:52 Speaker 1: Churrio. 00:12:53 Speaker 2: Churrio absolutely fits the mold, and he's probably your... Well, him and Terang are your biggest stars. William Contreras can hit some homers, but he fits that mold. The Mariners aren't built like that. If you wanted the Mariners to be an offensive... unit similar to the Brewers, they'd have to overhaul a lot of their team. Cal, it's not going to work. He strikes out too much. Julio, it's not going to work. He strikes out too much. Randy, when they had Randy, there's too much swing and miss. Like, there's just too much swing and miss in this team to say, oh, we're just going to be the Brewers. The Mariners aren't really built to do that. Now, you could go get some guys that more play that way, which is why we've talked about Edmundo Sosa, why we've talked about Mauricio Dubon to go fill up this bench. But you can't overhaul it to the level of the Brewers. It just wouldn't work. It's not the core you have. 00:13:41 Speaker 1: But it also takes more than just personnel on your roster. I think it takes organizational philosophy. It starts at the top and goes all the way down to your coordinators and your coaches at every single level. It really does. If the Mariners wanted to be this, they'd probably need to work on it for four to five years to successfully execute it. Mm-hmm. and have that be part of their organization. That's one thing you can definitely say about these two organizations, that they certainly have an organizational identity and know what they want, and it has worked very, very, very well. Despite them not spending the money of the other teams, they're able to be significantly better than them. Right. 00:14:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. It would take a lot of time. If Mariners fans wanted to see it happen in 2027, it's not a snap of a finger process. 00:14:33 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 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Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com slash marine layer. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash marine layer. Next question comes from Xander on Patreon. Xander's question is, what are your guys' thoughts on Randy and Tyler Glass now being in attendance at Game 6? 00:16:49 Speaker 2: Whatever. Uh, the glass now one's less relevant. I think this question more has to do with Randy. If I had to guess, I'm guessing they both still live in Florida in the off season. I'm pretty sure Randy does. So it makes sense that they were there. Randy clearly also has some friends on the team as noted by junior Cameron era, junior Cameron arrows owed to him as he was rounding the bases on that home run. Cause he did the Randy cross arms. So it sounds like, Randy probably still has some connections with that team, probably not with Yandy. I couldn't help but notice Yandy didn't exactly acknowledge him on his home run, but I'm guessing that's why they were there. They were in town. They probably got offered tickets, and they went. 00:17:32 Speaker 1: Organizations that you come up with do make a pretty big impact on you, and as I said in the last question, there are always opportunities to come back, and celebrate an organization that you spent the most time with as well. This happened for the Mariners when they made the playoffs back in 2022. There was a whole swath of Seattle area professional players that came back to go watch that game. Trevor May talked about being there at that 2022 game. 00:18:06 Speaker 2: J.R. 00:18:06 Speaker 1: Ritchie was there, current Braves starting pitcher. He was a Braves draft pick at that point. He was there, right? 00:18:13 Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked to JR about that this year. He was just drafted at that point. Yeah, because he was drafted in 2022. It was Cole Young's year. So, yeah, he was there. 00:18:23 Speaker 1: Michael Rucker was there. 00:18:25 Speaker 2: He was? Where'd you hear that? 00:18:27 Speaker 1: I remember I read it somewhere. He was a Cub at that point, a Cubs minor leaguer, and he came back to watch that game in 22. 00:18:34 Speaker 2: I want to say, whether it was that game or a couple of the games during this playoff run, I want to say Corbin Carroll's been at a Mariners playoff game, too. 00:18:43 Speaker 1: I think Corbin might've been at that game as well, unless the diamondbacks were in the playoffs that year, which I don't think so. 00:18:48 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think so. 00:18:49 Speaker 1: I think he might've been. Yeah. 00:18:52 Speaker 2: A lot of people show up for your hometown team. Makes sense. But if people are waiting for us to say it, I'll say it. Yeah. I think Randy's ready to move on. I think he still misses Tampa. I think he always missed Tampa. 00:19:05 Speaker 1: I think that's the thing. They miss Tampa. You could glass. No, might miss Tampa a little bit too. Yeah. 00:19:11 Speaker 2: Now he, Now he chose to sign an extension with the Dodgers, so it's not like he went running back to Tampa. 00:19:16 Speaker 1: But he wasn't going to get offered that in Tampa. 00:19:20 Speaker 2: And I would think Randy and Scott Boris know he's also not getting offered that in Tampa. 00:19:26 Speaker 1: So, yes, that did confirm to us that Randy does miss Tampa, which is understandable. Sometimes when you get traded out of the blue, you tend to miss a place. But I can't say we're that surprised at all. No. 00:19:42 Speaker 2: Again, he won't be back here next year. We know that. 00:19:44 Speaker 1: No, it's just, no, I don't think so. 00:19:46 Speaker 2: It's it's done. 00:19:48 Speaker 1: John on Patreon asks, what is one thing you love about Seattle or to the Washington area as a whole? And one thing you guys don't like. 00:19:59 Speaker 2: Don't like, I mean, I don't even have to think the rain. It's the absolute worst. I cannot, I like, It's funny as somebody who's grown up in Seattle their whole life. I mean, I really, really cannot emphasize enough how much I despise rain. One day I'm going to be a snowbird. I'll never leave Seattle. I have too many ties to it. We do so many things that keep us here regardless. But during the off seasons, when baseball is not going on, man, I would love to spend October through March in Arizona. 00:20:33 Speaker 1: Uh, okay. Well, what about, what's the one thing you like? 00:20:37 Speaker 2: Well, there's a million things I like about Seattle. There's so many things. Do you want me to pick the obvious ones or do you want me to pick a non-obvious one? 00:20:46 Speaker 1: Up to interpretation, whatever you think John wants to know. 00:20:51 Speaker 2: Just one? I mean, Seattle summers are about as good as any place in the country. I think we all know that that live here by now. 00:20:58 Speaker 1: So the like and dislike for you are both the weather. 00:21:02 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not a foodie like you, so if you're thinking about food places, oh, if you want one food thing, Seattle does have very good teriyaki, so that's good. 00:21:12 Speaker 1: But this is like a question for you. Is that what you like? 00:21:17 Speaker 2: I do like teriyaki. Yeah, I mean, I really like teriyaki. I'm not a big foodie, but I really like teriyaki. 00:21:22 Speaker 1: I wasn't sure if you were saying people, which people, yes, do really like teriyaki. No, no. I think the weather ones are very accurate for you. Yeah. 00:21:31 Speaker 2: No, teriyaki I really like. I mean, I'm trying to think about what else we should say that isn't regularly said. I mean, do you want me to say Pike Place is really cool? It is, but that's the tourist answer. I could say, honestly, honestly, one of the things I like about Seattle, and this is just a little tip of the cap to the area that I've grown up in, but the area I have grown up in and, and the area I still live in now in the East side of Seattle is, is pretty, is a pretty like unbelievable place to live. Like it's a been, it's been about as like friendly and welcoming and relaxing and like enjoyable place to grow up and live as, as you can really draw up. Like, I don't know how many other suburban, like suburban areas are as, as great to live in as the East side of Seattle. So there's a like, okay. 00:22:28 Speaker 1: My like is I don't think that people appreciate the natural beauty of this place enough if you're from here. Because I certainly didn't. Had there ever been a point, because you and I both spent a lot of time in New York as kids, like when you would spend time here and then you would go to New York not in the summer, do you remember how gray it used to be and like stale looking around was? 00:22:59 Speaker 2: I can't say yes because isn't that Seattle in the winter? Well, not when the clouds go away. That's not very often in the winter. 00:23:08 Speaker 1: But even still like you have water, you have trees, you have Hills. It like there, I remember, I think it might've been in middle school. There was a moment where I like, I truly realized like most people don't get like net the natural beauty of, of the Pacific Northwest. Yeah. Like, If you grew up in like Indiana, for example, and you never left the state and you came to Seattle for the first time, your head might explode. 00:23:32 Speaker 2: It's fair. Yeah. Seattle is a very, very gorgeous area state. Washington is just a gorgeous state. 00:23:41 Speaker 1: That would be the thing I like. The thing I don't like is I will relate something that we're going to do this week is that we're so far away from everything. Seriously. 00:23:53 Speaker 2: Seriously. 00:23:54 Speaker 1: You and I are going to go to the, well, when this podcast out, we'll be in Milwaukee, uh, to get to Chicago. It's a four hour flight for everyone else in America. It's like two, pretty much everyone else. And for us, it's a four hour flight. So it eventually like wears on you, especially if you travel as much as you and I do. We're just, we, we have to take it to extra hour long flight wherever we go. And yeah, as you can hear, I'm still a little bit under the weather as recording this and being sick on a plane for two extra hours is just, it's not fun. So sometimes I wish we were a little bit closer to things. Heck, well, I wish we could drive more places like that were close. Like you can drive from New York to Philadelphia or New York to Boston or Philadelphia to DC or DC to Baltimore. And it's, it's, everything is so close, but here, like you can drive three hours to Portland and You can drive two and a half hours to Vancouver. You can drive, what is it, four hours to Spokane. But like, that's it. 00:24:57 Speaker 2: It's crazy. It's funny. You never think this on a map, right? But we have a good friend of ours who lives in D.C. You and I also both have family members that live in the Raleigh area. You would never think this looking at a map, especially knowing the way the Pacific Northwest is laid out versus the way the East Coast is laid out. The drive from DC to Raleigh is about four and a half hours, which that doesn't even feel real. It looks like it's so much farther away on the map. Where in Seattle, four hours gets you to Corvallis. 00:25:32 Speaker 1: Four and a half. 00:25:33 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And that part of it, I will say, it's always too bad because we have so many baseball friends around the country now that we've gotten... to become friends with and connect with through doing baseball content but we really only see them at these league-wide events when we go a couple times a year winter meetings all-star week this year the world series maybe a couple others mixed in here and there nobody ever comes out to seattle nobody ever makes the trip it's southeast alaska so everybody in central america or the east coast ain't making that trip it's like if i need to see baseball i'll go somewhere closer. 00:26:13 Speaker 1: I wish there were more opportunities for like city day trips because we don't what what we like compensate for in the in the PNW is doing like nature day trips, which is fine. But it's nice to have the option to do like both. Oh, well, I don't do nature day. Well, you're not a nature guy. 00:26:32 Speaker 2: I know. 00:26:33 Speaker 1: But I mean, why the East Coast might actually suit you because you could do you don't have to deal with nature much at all. 00:26:39 Speaker 2: Oh, I think that's why I never had that realization in New York. I always knew that I really, really enjoyed growing up in Seattle. But as somebody, look, don't twist this the wrong way. I'm not some like, oh, global warming is awesome type of person. No, like nothing like that. I am just not like, don't spin this. I just mean I'm not a big hiker. I'm not a big camp. What's up? 00:27:05 Speaker 1: I'm not spinning anything. 00:27:08 Speaker 2: I'm just clarifying for the people, just in case they need a clarification. But, yeah, I'm not a big hiker. I'm not a big camper. I don't do a bunch of things like that that a lot of people who live in Washington love to do. So, yeah, like, I don't think I truly live in New York City, but I do love visiting. I've never had that, I guess, true realization. I mean, no, I mean, you recognize Washington's beauty. But, yeah, like, taking yourself away from the hiking stuff doesn't really ring a bell. Yeah, I like the East Coast. But don't get this twisted. I would never truly leave Seattle, I don't think. 00:27:45 Speaker 1: No. Okay. Well, that was a good question. Thank you for that question, John. 00:27:48 Speaker 2: It was a good question. Also, I think I said Central America when talking about Chicago. I should say Middle America. That's where Chicago is. 00:27:54 Speaker 1: Central America is something else. Very different things. 00:27:56 Speaker 2: Yeah. Central America is somewhere else. 00:27:59 Speaker 1: We're not flying to Central America on Wednesday. 00:28:02 Speaker 2: Definitely not. Middle America we are. 00:28:04 Speaker 1: Middle America we are, yes. Make sure to look outside when we land and notice how little... little nature there is outside. 00:28:10 Speaker 2: Yeah. Again, love Seattle. But the question was, what do you like? What do you not like? 00:28:17 Speaker 1: Totally fair point. And we both answered that. Let's get to the next question. This comes from Alex on Patreon. Alex's question is, is there anything specific about how the Brewers and Rays develop and manage their pitching that you think Seattle could learn from? 00:28:33 Speaker 2: Well, based on this, Baseball America graphic that they put out today about Stuff Plus and how teams rank across their minor league system, it feels like the Mariners probably should take something from the Rays or Brewers. I'm not enough of a pitching guru or a minor league guru in terms of prospect development to perfectly analyze this. But when you look at Stuff Plus and just how good the pure stuff is of each organization, and you see the Tampa Bay Rays ranking first in Major League Baseball, Meanwhile, the Mariners rank dead last. I say, they should probably find some more arms that have big time stuff. It doesn't always need to be that way with starters, but I would say when the Mariners rank that poorly in terms of stuff plus these days across their minor league system, I would say it provides some context as to why they probably don't pump out a lot of homegrown relievers anymore that work out because they don't. 00:29:33 Speaker 1: There could, be a balance with that. So you're essentially saying they need to focus on stuff over pitchability. 00:29:39 Speaker 2: I mean, they're so focused and have been so focused on throwing strike one, and they talk about winning your 1-1 counts, obviously. Well, I'm not saying that stuff's not important, but as this model comes out, all of a sudden it's saying that the Mariners have essentially sacrificed stuff just for strike throwing. And I think you need something in the middle. It's the George Kirby idea, which is there is a such thing as being too in the zone. And the Mariners clearly need more pitchers that just get more swing and miss. I know they have some of that in their rotation. Logan Gilbert gets some of it. Brian Wu gets some of it. They have some. But man, you get past Ryan Sloan in this farm system all of a sudden. They don't have a ton of guys missing bats aside from Mason Peters. It's just not a system loaded with stud arms with high projectability of high-octane stuff that could transfer to a bullpen. Even Brock Moore, right? When we were talking about Brock Moore being in the bullpen this summer, he was pitching well as an old prospect in Everett. He didn't light it up in AA, and then he got traded. And when you're talking about Brock Moore as being One of your exciting reliever prospects. I think that speaks to an organization that doesn't have great stuff. And yes, when Tampa ranks at the top of that list, I'd say go find more guys that just miss bats, man. 00:31:13 Speaker 1: I don't have an answer to this question. I don't think I'm the right type of person to ask this to and give a good answer. What probably would need... What could probably benefit the Mariners is better pitching depth in their minor league system. It seems a little top-heavy. If you're going to ask one thing, both the Rays and Brewers, to their current roster, are quite a staple of arms. And the Mariners have not been able to build a stable of arms to have on their big league roster. 00:31:53 Speaker 2: So. 00:31:55 Speaker 1: I would say if there's one thing, it would be that. The other things concern pitchability and what kind of pitches the Mariners prioritize for their pitchers to throw. We know they love throwing sinkers a bunch. The question is, is that the right decision to make? In general, for their starters, it has worked out very, very well for the last four years. Is that a successful model going forward? We'll see. But overall, Alex, I wish I had a better answer to your question, but I don't. Maybe draft a Jacob Mizorowski. That is something they could take a note of. 00:32:31 Speaker 2: Isn't it crazy we saw him in the Futures game when it was in Seattle in 2023? We didn't know who he was at the time, but I remember both of us looked at each other and we were sitting with all our friends from Just Baseball with Peter and Aram and Jack, a bunch of them. And Arum is so tapped in on prospects. He obviously knew every single guy, but you and I are sitting there and this really tall, lanky kid who apparently is a Brewers prospect comes into the game and starts pitching. And he's just pumping 102 miles an hour in the futures game. We look at each other like, who the hell is this? I mean, this guy's about to be the best closer to ever live. Turns out he's, not a reliever. He's a starting pitcher, and a starting pitcher is so good that he's about to win the Cy Young potentially unanimously, and he may anchor the Brewers to a World Series. So to think back to three years ago and seeing Miz pitch in the Futures game at T-Mobile, it's crazy. 00:33:30 Speaker 1: I remember the sound the pitches were making into the catcher's glove. It was so loud. It was like a cannon shot. Every time it would land in his glove, it sounds different. They always say it sounds different, and for him, it definitely did. 00:33:44 Speaker 2: Again, TJ and I just aren't Joe Doyle-level prospect evaluator, so it's hard to give a perfect answer on, you know, what would you take from the Brewers and Rays and implement into the Mariners' pitching development programs. But at face value, I would say they need more pitchers to miss bats, especially after this Baseball America graphic that got posted today where it says the Mariners have the worst stuff plus of any farm system in Major League Baseball. They gotta miss bats. 00:34:09 Speaker 1: And just to remind people, stuff plus does reward different things. Here's something that could have been very affected by that. Like Kate Anderson, for example, doesn't rate very high on stuff plus, but he's the number three prospect pitching prospect debate or number three prospect in baseball. 00:34:29 Speaker 2: But this goes back to what I said at the start of this question, which is correct. You do not have to have ridiculous stuff, pure stuff to be an effective big league starting pitcher. Kate Anderson is for the most part in that bucket. I'm not saying he doesn't have good pitches. I'm just saying, It doesn't have to be Jacob Mizorowski level. Sure. But the majority of your pitching prospects are not going to be one of the five starters in your big league rotation. So the majority of pitchers in your system are either going to get traded, they won't make it, or they'll be a bullpen arm. And when you have the majority of your arms in your system ranking at the bottom of the league and stuff, that seems like a bit of a red flag. Now, let me give one shout out because our guy, Lucas Kelly... go devils, forks up, friend of the pod, does have very good stuff. And he's one of the relievers in the system that is exempt from this because he's a guy that they drafted that really feels like has a chance to be a good big league reliever as long as he keeps putting it together. So shout out Lucas. But the majority of this farm system, and it makes sense when you go down the list and think through some of the names, there's not a bunch of guys that pop out that have crazy stuff. So I would say I would like to see more guys missing bats in the minors. 00:35:43 Speaker 1: They haven't had as many high upside depth guys. That'd have worked out, at the very least. 00:35:49 Speaker 2: Right. They haven't had another Matt Brash. And it's not like they drafted Matt Brash in the top 10 of a first round. Matt Brash was a player to be named later for Taylor Williams. That one they struck gold on. But you need more guys like that. And they are possible to find. Because again, they almost... found brash i'm not going to say they lucked into them but you don't ever expect that much of a player to be named later who's some low-end minor league arm especially in a taylor williams trade but that is how you can strike gold on some relievers that you end up developing and they haven't done that in a long time. 00:36:27 Speaker 1: Next question comes from pucci delgado on patreon his question is Is bad defense a choice, or did the Mariners simply overestimate the defensive abilities of their 2026 roster? 00:36:40 Speaker 2: If you were to ever have Jerry DiPoto and Justin Hollander take truth serum, I don't think they'd ever sit here and say, this is a top five defensive team in the league. I don't think they actually believe that that is what their team consists of, and that's how they win games. But yes, being a bad defender is a choice. When I see Randy Orozarena giving the First percentile effort on a ball down the left field line in Tampa for it to drop right in front of him, that is bad defense being a choice. When you see players taking bad angles to the baseball, that is the definition of being a bad defender is a choice. When we've talked about it doesn't seem like the Mariners do a whole lot of outfield drills pregame, that is an example of being a bad defender is a choice. There are things they could do that felt lacking this year. 00:37:29 Speaker 1: Because there's a difference between Josh Naylor not having the range because he's a bigger guy and doesn't quite have the strides or the athleticism to like lunge and dive after balls at first base. But it's like, are you technically sound? Do you scoop the ball? Do you make accurate throws when you throw behind a runner? Stuff like that. Stuff that you work on throughout your entire career. I think it's a balance of both. This roster was a bottom 10 defensive roster before the season, and it was made worse because whether by choice or regression across the board, there were guys that were really bad. You mentioned Randy. It's very possible that Jerry was mentioning Julio in his gaffes as well in center field. 00:38:14 Speaker 2: Right? Absolutely. 00:38:17 Speaker 1: Or whoever he had playing third base. Or... I mean, Cole Emerson didn't grade out very well at shortstop defensively this year. And he was hurt without telling anybody. So, like, that also could be by choice. So, there's a mix of both. Yeah. 00:38:37 Speaker 2: Brendan Donovan's never graded as a phenomenal defender at third base. So it just may not be his strongest skill set to have the range to be a gold glove level third baseman. There's a difference. The one thing about Brendan Donovan is I don't think anybody can question that guy's work ethic. I know he should have been wearing a batting helmet in the cage. Obviously, he didn't play a bunch this year. But when he plays, there is no questioning that guy's work ethic. That guy gets after it. So I think there's a difference between him just maybe not having the physical tools to be an elite defensive third baseman And guys not hitting their cutoff, man. There's a difference. 00:39:16 Speaker 1: I don't think the Mariners are going to be a great defensive team next year, but I do think without J.P. Crawford playing it short and Randy in left field, the team is going to be much better defensively. And then on top of that, if you add one or two plus corner outfield defenders in the outfield, it's going to go a long way. 00:39:35 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 00:39:38 Speaker 1: Next question comes from Cameron on Patreon. Cameron's question is, how do you guys feel about Ben Williamson and Casey Legomina being in the World Series? 00:39:49 Speaker 2: It's cool for them. They were both good dudes. We got nothing bad to say about them as as people. So, yeah, happy for him. Hopefully they get to absolutely just like live it all to the fullest. 00:40:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no animosity, maybe a little slight bit of jealousy for Ben. I mean, Ben was essentially a throwaway piece for a Mariners team that thought they were going to contend. The Mariners end up missing the playoffs by a sizable amount, and the Rays win 98 games and go to the World Series. So Ben's maybe in the back of his mind thinking, huh, that worked out. 00:40:25 Speaker 2: This is great. I'm playing in the World Series. Yeah, I'm happy for them both. Yeah, and dude, if you're Casey Legamina, who with the Rays actually... put out some decent numbers. I mean, he finished the year with a 3-6 ERA. Some of the stuff under the hood wasn't amazing, but he did his job. Like, he pitched innings and some... I don't want to call it meaningful leverage innings, but he ate innings for a raised team that was the best team in the American League this year with a 3-6 ERA. If you were to tell Casey Legamina at the start of the year, hey. 00:40:58 Speaker 2: You're going to either be in the back of a bullpen that wins less than 80 games and misses the playoffs, or you can go be a part of a potential World Series winner. Casey Legomino is probably sitting there thinking to himself, great. I mean, when the Mariners let him go, he probably was uncertain about what his future was going to look like. But then when it all came to terms and he's like, wow, I get to pitch for the Rays? This is amazing. 00:41:24 Speaker 1: Happy for them both. Let's close out this mailbag episode by answering Josh's question on Patreon. Josh's question is, even this fall, John Stanton continues to categorize the Mariners as a mid-market team. However, without MLB competition in Portland, Spokane, or elsewhere in the Pacific Northwest, if you added up the entire broadcast area of over 5 million households, the Mariners rank very highly in the television market. Is that fair that the Mariners are still classified as a middle market? 00:42:04 Speaker 2: We honestly should probably talk about this more, because speaking of Seattle not being near anything, that's benefited the Mariners for years. You know who doesn't want an expansion team in Portland? The Mariners, because it would chop off a big portion of the fan base. The Mariners have Seattle, they have Oregon, they have Alaska, they have Idaho, they have Montana. He is right that If you add it all up, it adds to a market size that's definitely bigger than just Seattle alone. 00:42:33 Speaker 1: I'm going to counter that. I think that used to be the case, but I think since Root Sports disappeared, that is no longer the case. Because now you need to convince people to sign up and pay for your product by actually playing good baseball and being entertaining instead of it just being acquired as part of your cable package. So yeah, it was pretty cool when everyone in Portland... and Spokane and Juneau, Alaska, and Fairbanks, Alaska, had to buy a cable package that happened to come with Root Sports because they were in the Mariners' TV market, and therefore the Mariners get all that money from it. But now the Mariners, for their fans in Alaska and Portland and Spokane, have to get you to sign up. So I don't know if it matters quite as much. 00:43:25 Speaker 2: Okay, but don't you think the... Mariners are the majority. Don't you think the Mariners are the primary team for all those states? I mean, they're the closest team to them. 00:43:38 Speaker 1: Sure, but only if you can convert the fans. Like, are these people casual fans or are they diehard fans who are spending their money and actually making an impact? Because I'll tell you, if you go to New York in the metro area of 8 million people, those people are pretty bought in. And there's significant financial backing, whether it be sponsorship dollars or ticket sales that benefit the Yankees and Mets a bunch. Like that has to convert for it to matter for the Mariners. Otherwise, we're just talking about a big, you know, a big area, right? 00:44:14 Speaker 2: But I think in those big areas, the majority fans, the majority fan base is, I don't even know what the right way to put it is yet. The team that people root for the most in those states is the Mariners because it's the closest team and those states are still considered in a lot of respects, the Northwest. So maybe they don't get the same money that they once got from Root Sports, but if you were watching Mariners games in Oregon, Alaska, Idaho, Montana growing up, then you're probably still watching now. And while it might not be to an exact T to what John sent us in terms of, oh, well, now is Seattle actually the number five to number seven market size? they're bigger than just Seattle. And I think a lot of cities don't have that where Washington and Seattle does. 00:44:58 Speaker 1: If you were to add all of that up, it would be the number three market behind only LA in New York, 3.9 million. If you were to combine just the three, the three Metro areas, if you go on Nielsen of Seattle, Tacoma, Spokane and Portland, that would add up to 3.9 million people. But again, I don't know if that matters as much anymore since you're not being subsidized by people who don't watch. I really, cause the it's, it's like, it's like the argument while land doesn't vote. It's the same thing with baseball now. Like the dot, the, the Dodgers situation is different because they still have like this massive cable deal and they're not on Dodgers TV where they have to sell subscriptions. No, they got the, the bogus Mark Walter TV channel instead that people have to pay for. 00:45:50 Speaker 2: Okay. 00:45:50 Speaker 1: It's just kind of a different situation. 00:45:53 Speaker 2: In conclusion, open your books and prove what market size you really are. 00:45:57 Speaker 1: Sure. I, I'm a hundred percent behind that, but I wouldn't say like Portland makes the Mariners a top 10 market in baseball. I, I don't think that's the case. How that would work out, let me include an example here. So the Dodgers can be the number two market in MLB because they have the number two markets worth of fans because everyone's in the LA area. They have the number two markets worth of sponsorships, which all the big companies in the LA area are gonna sponsor the Dodgers in some way or form. So the revenue comes in that way. 00:46:37 Speaker 2: And then. 00:46:38 Speaker 1: there's the market appeal to the players of playing in that number two market. Do you think Randy Rosarano was like, when he came to Seattle, was like, it's great getting to play in a market with both Seattle and Portland? Like, no. 00:46:52 Speaker 2: Well, I don't think he thinks about that, but I think the owner's checkbooks think about that. 00:46:59 Speaker 1: Not as much. 00:47:01 Speaker 2: We will not know until they open their books and they need to open their books. 00:47:04 Speaker 1: No, we'll not. No, we will not. No. Three hours away is pretty far away to make as much of an impact as you would think. And if you're a Mariners fan listening down in Portland, I'd be very curious to hear your feedback on this topic of like whose side, Lyle or I's side is more right on this discussion in terms of like the cable subscription or. how much of an impact fans driving up to go to games from Portland is. I'd be curious to know. 00:47:33 Speaker 2: I'm curious to hear from Idaho and Alaska and Montana, too, because, again, this all feeds into the Mariners. The Mariners promote to those states and to those fans. You see it all the time. They're Fan of the Month from Idaho, and they're Fan of the Month from Montana. They know that's their market. So they're promoting to that market. They're trying to market themselves to that market. But magically... Doesn't help their market size, apparently. 00:47:59 Speaker 1: Can I have another example? Do you want to know what market ranks just ahead of the Mariners? Or just ahead of Seattle and Tacoma? 00:48:07 Speaker 2: What's that? 00:48:08 Speaker 1: Tampa Bay. 00:48:09 Speaker 2: Yeah. Tampa Bay actually doesn't have any fans, though, unfortunately. That's not even a shot. You can market to the fans. 00:48:16 Speaker 1: Does it work? Does it reciprocate? Do the companies want to come out and sponsor you? Do the fans want to buy your tickets and pay for your TV subscriptions? 00:48:25 Speaker 2: Right. 00:48:26 Speaker 1: That's the real thing. Yeah. 00:48:28 Speaker 2: Although Tampa doesn't have other states backing them. 00:48:32 Speaker 1: Well, they don't need it because they're ahead of Seattle. 00:48:35 Speaker 2: Well, but not if you include everything else. Sure. 00:48:41 Speaker 1: I guess. 00:48:42 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:48:42 Speaker 1: I don't know. I just don't think it's as much of an impact these days. Right. Well. Too many other things to do. 00:48:49 Speaker 2: Well, again, open your books and prove it. And I'll use that same terminology for the lockout. Like, you want people to believe that They need a salary cap. And again, I'll be open-minded, but open-minded is if you're ready as the 30 owners in Major League Baseball to use facts to represent why a salary cap's needed. Not, oh, we need a salary cap so we can raise all our franchise valuations and keep getting richer from billionaires to multi-billionaires and say to our fans, well, why do we need a salary cap? Just trust me, bro. We do. Just trust me. Oh, well, okay. open your books and prove that we need a cap. 00:49:21 Speaker 1: Oh, no, no, no. 00:49:22 Speaker 2: We don't need to do that. But we need a salary cap. Just trust me. Yeah. Anyway, good stuff. Good mailbag. Thank you guys as always for sending in all the questions. If you have a question on your mind that we didn't answer this week... and you want it answered in the future, the easiest way to get your question answered is to go sign up at our Patreon, and you get your mailbag questions answered every single week. With that, that'll just about wrap up this edition of the Marine Layer Podcast. You guys know the drill. If you want to listen to the full-form podcast, you can do so wherever you get your audio pods. Please make sure to download the episodes, and go leave that five-star review if you're listening. It really helps a ton if you do. Hit that subscribe button on YouTube. Also check out our website at marinelayerpod.com where you can find all of our merch, our Patreon, our podcast episodes, a whole bunch of stuff. It's all over there. And then find us all across social media at marinelayerpod. That's TJ. I'm Lyle. As always, we thank you guys for tuning in. We'll talk to you soon.