Episode 161: Steven Souza Jr. (Retired MLB OF), And Reacting To The Mariners Retaining Jerry Dipoto For 2025

[00:00:00] Welcome to episode number 161 of the Marine Layer Podcast. We welcome on retired big leaguer Steven Souza Jr.

[00:00:07] We chat about the Mariners hitting struggles, some great stories from his career and the role of being a veteran player in a big league clubhouse.

[00:00:15] We'll also react to the Mariners deciding to retain Jerry Dipoto for 2025.

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[00:01:33] And we welcome you to this episode of the Marine Layer podcast, part of the Just Baseball podcast network recording on Thursday evening, September 5th.

[00:01:43] The Seattle Times broke earlier this evening that Jerry DePoto would be retained by the Mariners ownership group into 2025 and potentially beyond.

[00:01:52] There's a lot of details to get into this.

[00:01:54] So let's get into it.

[00:01:55] Let's start with looking at the reason why Jerry DePoto got retained to 2025.

[00:02:02] I have the reason why Jerry DePoto got retained for 2025 because he fits what the Mariners ownership likes to do.

[00:02:12] And that's what matters to them.

[00:02:14] So they decided how Jerry DePoto builds big league rosters to be competitive, to win games in the high 80s potentially into the low 90s.

[00:02:24] That that is what they want looking forward to next year.

[00:02:27] And given what they anticipate is coming this off season, they feel like Jerry DePoto is the man to handle that off season again as we anticipate.

[00:02:38] It's going to look a lot like last off season was instead of hiring someone new to handle that off season.

[00:02:44] Why not just let Jerry do it again?

[00:02:47] Given that he might be expecting what's going to happen in the off season again because Jerry's not stupid.

[00:02:52] But he is very smart.

[00:02:54] If Jerry looks at this off season, let's be honest, Lyle, do you think Jerry looks at this off season as like, man, we're going to get a huge budget raise this off season?

[00:03:03] We're going to have a ton of money to spend.

[00:03:04] You think he's thinking that?

[00:03:06] No, I think internally he's thinking to himself this off season is going to fucking suck.

[00:03:10] It might be even worse than last year's.

[00:03:12] Right.

[00:03:13] But he's already been through it once.

[00:03:16] Without a...

[00:03:17] Well, let's say the beginning of the off season from a PR perspective was an absolute travesty and a disaster with his press conference.

[00:03:25] But this off season, since he's already been through the ringer once on a tight budget off season, it's like why not?

[00:03:34] Why not have him do it again?

[00:03:36] Right.

[00:03:37] And that's kind of what I was getting at by saying this off season is going to suck because it does not seem like there's going to be money.

[00:03:44] Coming from the Mariners ownership to give this team a bump in payroll.

[00:03:49] It just doesn't.

[00:03:51] Like, from everything that seems to be gathered by the masses, we don't know if root sports is going to be back in 2025.

[00:03:58] And if it is, they can't be netting much money for it.

[00:04:01] So as an example, not as an example as a reality, Jerry DePoto is probably going to get told if you want to spend money, you're going to have to create it yourself.

[00:04:11] Which is bullshit and it's stupid.

[00:04:14] And it's not like these teams don't have money.

[00:04:16] Jeff Passen talks about it all the time when he's on 710.

[00:04:18] It's like, these owners have money.

[00:04:21] I don't care that the RSN is falling apart.

[00:04:22] They could spend it if they wanted to spend it, but they're not going to.

[00:04:27] And that's why I say this off season could be worse because they're pressed up against the payroll budget and are either going to have to cut ties with guys on the roster

[00:04:36] or just essentially run back this roster as it is, which we already know has a laundry list of problems.

[00:04:43] What this move with Jerry DePoto signals is that the Mariners will not be all into winning a division title and winning a World Series next year.

[00:04:55] I feel like that was a given, but this, I would say confirms it.

[00:04:59] When are they ever all in on winning a division and World Series title?

[00:05:03] That's the point.

[00:05:05] They're never all in on winning a division and World Series title.

[00:05:08] Yeah. Again, that's the point.

[00:05:10] And if Jerry was going to do it with the budget they were given, he would have done it already.

[00:05:15] In nine seasons he would have won a division title.

[00:05:19] So like that's pretty clear coming up with this.

[00:05:24] What was troubling with this for me really was if you look at the Seattle Times report,

[00:05:29] they note that by mid-season Mariners ownership had already made a decision

[00:05:35] that they were going to keep Jerry DePoto for 2025.

[00:05:38] Let's say it is sometime between, sometime around the 4th of July, let's say that.

[00:05:46] That was the middle of summer, right?

[00:05:48] So they had made the decision that Jerry's job was safe at that point.

[00:05:52] So then why does Scott only get a month of hangtime?

[00:05:58] Of like Scott got essentially a bad month in change that led to his fire.

[00:06:05] I'll tell you why there's this thing in sports and often in life called scapegoating.

[00:06:11] Scott's service is what we call a scapegoat.

[00:06:14] Somebody had to take the blame even though it was basically not his fault, almost at all.

[00:06:22] He was forced to be the scapegoat and take the blame.

[00:06:24] There's your answer.

[00:06:27] Just strange.

[00:06:30] But on print, if you just listened to our Ryan Divas episode, he laid it out perfectly.

[00:06:35] They don't operate in common sense.

[00:06:37] No.

[00:06:38] If they operated in common sense, Jerry DePoto probably wouldn't be the president of baseball operations next year.

[00:06:44] But he is.

[00:06:46] Yeah, they would go outside the organization and try to find somebody that's up and coming,

[00:06:50] that's revered, that they think is ready to be a full big league GM and improve this team.

[00:06:57] Now what would you look for in a potential new GM if DePoto wasn't back that could improve a new team?

[00:07:05] I would say the one thing that could be upgraded over Jerry.

[00:07:10] Well, okay, I'll say two things.

[00:07:11] One's on field and it's better evaluation of major league offense and also just being better at PR.

[00:07:18] Other than that, I don't really know what upgrades you make over DePoto.

[00:07:22] Do you know what's the problem though with this offseason?

[00:07:25] What's the two things the Mariners need the most this offseason?

[00:07:29] Good PR and major league talent evaluation.

[00:07:35] Well, I can't help you there, Hoss.

[00:07:39] What do you look for?

[00:07:44] I'd love to say a sitting general manager but you know that's never going to happen.

[00:07:49] No.

[00:07:49] You want someone with a lot of experience.

[00:07:52] You would be picking out someone with significantly less experience than what you currently have in your front office

[00:07:58] if you were to go outside of your organization.

[00:08:00] And that's what I mean.

[00:08:02] I'd less mean who it would be and more the qualities you look for, which again,

[00:08:06] I think the two things which Jerry has lacked is good PR and finding major league offensive talent.

[00:08:13] Those are the two things you could look at.

[00:08:14] He's drafted well, he's developed.

[00:08:16] They've got a good farm system.

[00:08:17] They've got an elite rotation.

[00:08:19] Aside from this year, they have developed elite bullpens with guys that are totally inexpensive and they find value in.

[00:08:26] The one on-field area offense at the big leagues and the one off field area PR.

[00:08:33] So if you were to look to upgrade over Jerry, it would be those things.

[00:08:40] But obviously they're not going to look because he's got a new deal.

[00:08:43] And if you were to bring in a new regime, you would be looking, I feel like beyond 2025.

[00:08:49] If you were...

[00:08:50] Sorry, let me re-frame that.

[00:08:52] Sorry.

[00:08:52] So if you're to bring in a new regime, what you're paying attention to and what you're focused on would be on 2025,

[00:08:58] but you would also be anticipating moves in the future beyond that 2026, 2027, 2028, et cetera.

[00:09:04] But as we've repeated multiple times, I'm to the point where I don't really care about what the future looks like

[00:09:09] because we've been sold on future for so long and we just literally just been waiting for a year where it's,

[00:09:14] oh actually about the team currently on the field at that time.

[00:09:18] So if you were thinking, Lyle, what would Jerry do to improve a 2025 roster versus what would a new regime do to improve a 2025 roster?

[00:09:28] How much different would it be?

[00:09:30] Like if you brought a new regime in, would they decide even though we need to create budget, we wouldn't trade Randy Arosarana?

[00:09:37] His feelings don't change. He doesn't care about a new regime. He's just there to play.

[00:09:43] Right.

[00:09:43] That wouldn't change?

[00:09:44] If a new regime came in, would the reality of the Mariners have a significant amount of pitching and not enough hitting change

[00:09:52] and that they could very realistically trade a pitcher for a hitter?

[00:09:55] No.

[00:09:57] All that would be the same. You could bring in a new regime and they could still trade Logan Gilbert in the off season

[00:10:03] and they could still trade Randy Arosarana. That part's not going to change. They're not magically going to stay because of that.

[00:10:10] Which gets back to the root of the whole problem and as they say in the second Hunger Games movie, Catching Fire,

[00:10:15] remember who the real enemy is and quote,

[00:10:19] it's true. Like Jerry's not perfect. We know that.

[00:10:23] But you think Jerry's top priority in free agency this past winter was signing Mitch Garver?

[00:10:29] No. I'm sure he would have loved to sign Mitch Garver at the time as a complimentary piece.

[00:10:35] You think Jerry didn't want Shohei? He clearly wanted him the first time.

[00:10:39] You think that wavered after what he did for six years in Anaheim? No.

[00:10:44] If he'd have the budget, I'm sure they would have gone after him. They don't. And that's the extreme example.

[00:10:49] They don't have the budget to sign anybody. Yeah, to sign anybody. I mean, they have the money.

[00:10:52] They just don't. This ownership group doesn't give the front office the necessary resources,

[00:10:57] which is what's going to drive people crazy. And I'll be honest.

[00:11:01] If they have another off season like we're expecting to see them have,

[00:11:04] where almost no money is spent because of the alleged RSN problems.

[00:11:08] Dude, I think they're going to start to lose some people.

[00:11:11] I really do it and that hurts me to say I love.

[00:11:14] I want nothing but good things for this franchise. That's what every fan wants.

[00:11:17] They just want to see this team be great and the stands packed for all good reasons

[00:11:21] and to root on a team that's exciting and fun and can get to a world series.

[00:11:27] But I don't know if that's going to happen. And for so long, people were sold on this rebuild,

[00:11:32] sold on this core stick with it while this core formulates.

[00:11:36] And when the time's right, we're going to go outside the org.

[00:11:39] We're going to invest the necessary resources.

[00:11:41] We're going to do the necessary things to put this team over the top.

[00:11:44] Well, the core is here and they might not win 81 games this year.

[00:11:48] They may finish under 500. And if that's paired with another bad off season,

[00:11:53] the nostalgia of the rebuild is going to start to wane on people.

[00:11:57] I hope that's not the case. I hope I'm wrong.

[00:12:01] But that's just what reality is starting to feel like.

[00:12:03] You can tell, you can start to tell people are getting on the edge here.

[00:12:09] Didn't we say that last off season though that they were going to lose fans?

[00:12:12] We did say that. Yeah, but that was really lost anybody.

[00:12:18] That was after what was still an 88 win season.

[00:12:22] They were just just on the brink of missing the playoffs again.

[00:12:24] We're talking finishing under 500. It would be essentially year four with this core.

[00:12:29] If you want to count like the Julio Kirby cow time, it'd be three years with this core,

[00:12:33] which would feature one playoff appearance two years ago consecutive years of not making the playoffs a year of

[00:12:38] finishing under 500 and then not investing resources again.

[00:12:43] I think that I'd be curious to see what the numbers would be to really represent losing fans.

[00:12:50] Like I have no doubt people will be pissed and there'll be a lot of people who would stop watching.

[00:12:54] But how many? Because as I remind you over and over and over again,

[00:12:58] there are so many just very casual Mariners fans and baseball fans in the Pacific Northwest

[00:13:04] who probably think of all this as a non-issue and it doesn't matter.

[00:13:08] Like really it does. And as we know, like that's really who the Mariners appeal to.

[00:13:15] A lot of fireworks nights, a lot of really good marketing campaigns by the marketing team.

[00:13:21] Seriously, they do a fantastic job getting people into the ballpark with really good weather

[00:13:26] and a competitive, fun, sorry throw fun out. Not always fun, but young and competitive product on the field.

[00:13:36] All those things are true, right?

[00:13:38] They are and I'm not laughing at what you said about the marketing team being incredible because they are.

[00:13:43] That's what drives me crazy is top to bottom. It really feels like this whole organization is so committed to winning

[00:13:52] minus the people in charge. So like that's what drives me crazy. You're absolutely right.

[00:13:57] The people in marketing and PR and like media relations and you name it ballpark operations,

[00:14:03] they are fantastic at their jobs. The marketing team for the Mariners is awesome.

[00:14:07] That's not what I was laughing at. What I'm laughing at is I can't hear you or anybody say fireworks nights with the Mariners

[00:14:13] without associating it with Mark from Maple Valley.

[00:14:17] We're treated with fireworks and bobbleheads.

[00:14:20] So when you say that, that's all that rings in my head. Is that call?

[00:14:27] That's fair. That is fair. I did have one thing that slipped my mind here.

[00:14:33] Do you have any other points here? I'm going to try and rekindle whatever I was thinking about.

[00:14:39] I can try and help you out as we're just sitting right here. Is it something about non-baseballs?

[00:14:44] Is it something about ownership? Is it something about the front office? Is it something about the roster? Still nothing?

[00:14:51] Well, I will say this. Again, you know what Jared Depotto is going to be.

[00:14:55] He drafts well, develops pitching, farm systems good, but you know there are limitations.

[00:15:02] There's going to be payroll limitations no matter what.

[00:15:05] He has not developed enough offensive talent at the major league level.

[00:15:09] We're going to have to see what he does. Now it looks like you figured it out.

[00:15:11] Well, I got it back. I will not be endorsing any sort of message coming from the Mariners

[00:15:19] from the time the season ends through next season where they say,

[00:15:24] wait until our young guys come up.

[00:15:27] Yeah, no.

[00:15:28] That's not allowed.

[00:15:29] Because you know what the reaction is going to be.

[00:15:33] The reaction is going to be this.

[00:15:34] We're sitting here again, talking about the same things.

[00:15:41] Thank you, Brian Kelly.

[00:15:43] Because guess what? When they say that, the premier prospects are not going to be up next year.

[00:15:52] Now we might see Cole Young and Harry Ford and that's no knock on them.

[00:15:56] We like both of those dudes. They're really good dudes.

[00:15:59] We talked to them in spring training and we know they have some upside,

[00:16:02] but they also didn't have set the world on fire type seasons in AA.

[00:16:08] As Ryan Divish said, could Cole Young be a 18-20 home run guy at like 790-800 OPS?

[00:16:15] Sure. At some point.

[00:16:17] I don't know if at 22 years old in the big leagues that's what he's going to be doing.

[00:16:20] And you'd be banking on him to help you do that if that message is relayed saying,

[00:16:27] wait till the young guys come up.

[00:16:28] Because that's who's coming up next year.

[00:16:30] If you're talking about the premier prospects, the three we always highlight in terms of the highlight bats.

[00:16:35] Colt Emerson, Felene Celestine, Lazaro Montez.

[00:16:39] Minimum 2026 is when that's going to happen.

[00:16:42] And I don't know if it's at the start of 2026.

[00:16:44] So you'd be asking people to wait another year and a half to see your premier prospects come up

[00:16:49] in a time where they might not just click right away.

[00:16:52] Julio didn't, Kal-nick didn't.

[00:16:54] And when are they going to be good?

[00:16:56] That's what I'm saying.

[00:16:56] When are all those players going to be collectively good together?

[00:17:00] 2028?

[00:17:02] Maybe 2027 depending on how fast they develop. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:17:06] Well based on what the org has shown us with hitting development,

[00:17:09] that's no guarantee it takes only a year.

[00:17:12] Right? No, it's true.

[00:17:15] And I want those guys to come up and be great.

[00:17:18] Like, I just went down to Everett on Wednesday and talked to Colt, talked to Michael Arroyo,

[00:17:24] a couple other guys like, they're great and we're rooting for them.

[00:17:27] Like, Colt Emerson is an awesome dude.

[00:17:30] I'm rooting for him to be great.

[00:17:32] He's very nice, very focused.

[00:17:36] You can tell he's really, really mature for a 19 year old kid.

[00:17:39] And he made an awesome play while I was there too by the way.

[00:17:43] It was that play he ranged to his left in the hole and made the spin throw.

[00:17:46] Yeah, like there's reasons to be excited about those guys, but guess what?

[00:17:49] When they're up and they're ready, have an actual lineup around them

[00:17:53] so all the pressure is not on them because that's not fair.

[00:17:56] Look at what it did to Kelnick. Don't do that again.

[00:18:00] So let's say the Mariners, let's create a fantasy world.

[00:18:04] Ready? Let's say the Mariners do operate like they want to win a championship.

[00:18:08] And they have to make this decision on Jerry DePoto to attempt to win a championship

[00:18:14] in the next couple of years and make deep runs into the playoffs.

[00:18:18] Based on what he has done, would you have kept him around for next season?

[00:18:25] Under the assumption that they would not bring in anybody better, yes.

[00:18:31] But I created a fantasy world where Mariners ownership wants to win a championship next year

[00:18:36] and is willing, let me clarify, and is willing to put the resources into it too.

[00:18:42] So you're saying they could...

[00:18:45] Let's swap the Phillies ownership and the Mariners ownership right now in this fantasy world

[00:18:50] and they are moving into next season.

[00:18:52] Well, then I'd be curious to see what DePoto could do with an actual payroll

[00:18:56] because again he's been hamstrung his whole time here.

[00:18:59] So it's kind of an unfair question or maybe unfair is not the right word,

[00:19:02] it's a tough question because we've only seen Jerry operate on a minimal budget.

[00:19:06] I would be very interested to see what he does with no handcuffs,

[00:19:10] just free reigns do what you need to do under the Phillies ownership, under Steve Cohen, etc.

[00:19:17] Like that's my answer to that question.

[00:19:20] Yes, then.

[00:19:22] Sure, because we don't know.

[00:19:25] But if now if he was here next year and the year after

[00:19:28] and he had free reign to go do what he wanted in free agency with no limitations

[00:19:32] and they still weren't making depotes season runs, then yeah, I'd look to go find somebody else.

[00:19:37] And if we're still living in a fantasy world,

[00:19:39] then you look to poach somebody away from another team that's already a really good GM.

[00:19:44] That's what you do.

[00:19:45] Or like here's an example too, right?

[00:19:48] There seems to be some speculation, I saw it out there today on Twitter,

[00:19:51] that Farhan Zayedee might not be back with the Giants next year,

[00:19:55] but do we know if Farhan Zayedee is for sure better than Jerry?

[00:20:01] Because he had a crazy payroll when he was part of the Dodgers organization.

[00:20:05] Then he goes to the Giants, he had the payroll with the Giants considering

[00:20:08] they almost gave Kareya a huge contract, they almost gave Judge a huge contract,

[00:20:12] they just extended Matt Chapman.

[00:20:15] They gave Blake-

[00:20:16] Blake-Snell.

[00:20:16] Blake-Snell, yeah.

[00:20:18] So he did all that with a payroll

[00:20:21] and the Giants aren't making deep post-season runs,

[00:20:26] so if he's doing that with a payroll-

[00:20:27] Blake-They'd won.

[00:20:29] Blake-When?

[00:20:30] Blake-21.

[00:20:31] Blake-Oh okay, well no, but they lost in the first round that year.

[00:20:34] Blake-Oh sorry, not a deep run, but they were really good.

[00:20:36] They won 108 games.

[00:20:37] Blake-Well yeah, okay, yeah.

[00:20:39] With a roster that was not going to sustain that year over year,

[00:20:42] that was a fluke.

[00:20:43] Blake-People would kill for that!

[00:20:45] Blake-Well okay, yeah.

[00:20:46] But here's my point.

[00:20:49] Like, is Farhan's IED a for sure better option than Jared Apoto?

[00:20:53] Blake-He's not, no.

[00:20:55] Blake-So that's the one guy that's a name on the market right now potentially.

[00:20:58] If it's not him, then who would it be?

[00:21:01] Again, if you had all the money in the world to poach Andrew Friedman away from LA,

[00:21:04] great, but that's not going to happen.

[00:21:07] Blake-So yeah, Farhan would be the only one with recent GM experience.

[00:21:12] Blake-Otherwise?

[00:21:13] Blake-Running a Baseball Ops department.

[00:21:14] Blake-Yeah, or unless you get Eric Neander from Tampa and way over pay to get him away.

[00:21:20] That type of thing.

[00:21:21] Blake-But everything we know the Mariners aren't going to pay as much.

[00:21:24] The raise might pay Neander more than Jerry makes.

[00:21:28] Blake-Right?

[00:21:29] Blake-We don't know that, but everything we can hear of what the compensation like is what Mariners pay out

[00:21:35] could be pretty close.

[00:21:37] Blake-Yeah exactly.

[00:21:37] Blake-Why would you move 3,000 miles for similar pay?

[00:21:42] Blake-Yeah.

[00:21:42] Blake-So my answer to that question is in a fantasy land, I would not keep Jerry if that was the case.

[00:21:49] Based off what he has done.

[00:21:50] Unfortunately we don't live in a fantasy land, we live in reality.

[00:21:53] And I think going into next season this is your only option.

[00:22:00] Blake-Really?

[00:22:00] Blake-And let me make this clear.

[00:22:03] Like I stated earlier, I'm not looking at how Jerry builds the Mariners for the future.

[00:22:07] I'm looking at how Jerry builds the 2025 Mariners.

[00:22:10] Because that's how ownership is looking at this as well.

[00:22:14] How does Jerry build the 2025 Mariners team?

[00:22:17] I don't care what the team looks like in 2028.

[00:22:20] No more sustainability.

[00:22:23] Blake-Yeah.

[00:22:23] Blake-Again, we're just kind of done with sustainability because the only thing the Mariners have sustainably been is slightly above average.

[00:22:31] So focus on the 2025 Mariners, that's what Jerry DePote's job is going to be.

[00:22:36] And if we're in the same situation a year from now, I will be much harder, much more in the, let's find somebody else's train.

[00:22:45] Because then we would have another year of the same product.

[00:22:49] Blake-But he's going to have to make the 2025 roster better with two hands tied behind his back and basically nothing to work with as we assume.

[00:22:57] Blake-But again, the way we know his contract was structured, he didn't have to come back.

[00:23:03] Blake-No.

[00:23:03] Blake-I don't think.

[00:23:04] Blake-But he might feel like he wasn't going to for sure find another president of baseball ops job somewhere else.

[00:23:10] He might have found a GM job, but president of baseball ops is an upgrade.

[00:23:14] Blake-Yeah, probably not.

[00:23:15] So again, that's his choice right there of decision what to do.

[00:23:19] Blake-Yeah, so he's going to stick with it, but we don't think he's going to have much of a budget.

[00:23:24] You know what?

[00:23:25] Prove us wrong ownership.

[00:23:27] You think you don't like people saying they're not going to have much of a budget?

[00:23:31] Well, you can change that.

[00:23:33] You own the team, you get to make the decision.

[00:23:35] Prove us wrong.

[00:23:36] Blake-Be nice.

[00:23:37] Blake-Just go sign one soda.

[00:23:38] Blake-I'm down.

[00:23:39] Blake-No value beers.

[00:23:41] Blake-No.

[00:23:41] Blake-No value beers.

[00:23:42] Blake-Pull price $18 a pop every game next year.

[00:23:45] Blake-Mhmm.

[00:23:46] Blake-What was the last thing I was going to say here?

[00:23:48] Did I have one more thought on this?

[00:23:50] See now I'm losing my train of thoughts because we've got our head spin in here.

[00:23:55] There's just a lot going on with this.

[00:23:57] Blake-Yeah.

[00:23:59] The thing about the Mariners deciding Midsy's going to keep Jerry and then giving Scott the short end of stick just rubs me the wrong way, man.

[00:24:07] Blake-Yeah.

[00:24:09] Blake-It just doesn't...

[00:24:11] Just more on par with the bad PR we see over and over and over again of that.

[00:24:15] Just feels a little short-sided in that point.

[00:24:19] I will also say this was more predictable once Dan Wilson was hired as a full-time manager.

[00:24:25] Ryan Divish when he was on with us said, no that's not for sure but just given the optics of it seemed like with a full-time tag you're not going to get uproot a regime at that point.

[00:24:39] Blake-And by for sure you mean it's not for sure Jerry is going to be here but it seems likely because just in case people heard that and said what it's not for sure Dan Wilson is going to be full-time.

[00:24:49] Now at that point Dan Wilson was full-time.

[00:24:51] Blake-Was full-time but Divish was saying there's nothing stopping you from just letting him go.

[00:24:55] Again.

[00:24:56] Ryan-Right.

[00:24:56] Blake-If you fired Jerry.

[00:24:58] Ryan-Sure.

[00:24:58] No that's true and I will wrap up with this.

[00:25:02] The guy we were speculating about on the last show as a potential new GM, well at least it's not that guy people so if you're mad about Jerry there's your glass half full perspective.

[00:25:15] Blake-Well what's the difference in a win total with Tim Stanton running things versus Jerry DePoto in 2025?

[00:25:23] Ryan-In 2025 it might be absolutely nothing at all.

[00:25:28] In 2030 and even in 2027 2028 if he had hypothetically been proven to not be good at the job, it would have been a problem because Jerry clearly didn't have total job security until it was made informed to him that they were going to keep him.

[00:25:47] But again it would have been the cowboys of the NFL if that had happened.

[00:25:52] Ryan-Yeah.

[00:25:54] Sorry the cowboys of the MLB sorry.

[00:25:56] Blake-Yeah it would have and what do you think the approval rating on this decision is if you're going to guess?

[00:26:04] Ryan-On the hypothetical or on Jerry?

[00:26:07] Blake-On Jerry's decision.

[00:26:09] Ryan-Oh.

[00:26:09] Blake-On the decision to keep Jerry.

[00:26:13] Ryan-It's never a good thing to just judge off social media but I would say, I'd honestly say it's close to 50-50.

[00:26:23] Blake-I'd agree with you.

[00:26:24] Ryan-Yeah.

[00:26:25] It's pretty split.

[00:26:26] That's what we were saying at the beginning of the show, it is legitimately pretty split between the fan base.

[00:26:30] People have their different opinions.

[00:26:32] Now had the hypothetical come true?

[00:26:33] I kid you not, 0%.

[00:26:38] That's not an exaggeration.

[00:26:41] Could you have found one person that didn't have bloodlines or like it wasn't good friends with them being like this is a great idea.

[00:26:50] Ryan-Umm...

[00:26:51] Other people and it's probably somebody in the ownership group would agree.

[00:26:54] Blake-Okay, sorry nobody with bloodlines, no close friends, no co-workers.

[00:27:00] Ryan-Everyone in the Houston Astros organization.

[00:27:04] Blake-Or the A's because maybe they feel like some of the bad PR would have gotten taken off them.

[00:27:11] Ryan-It would.

[00:27:12] Blake-Yeah.

[00:27:13] Ryan-There's nothing John Fisher likes more than someone else's business to cover up his own.

[00:27:19] Blake-Alright, well that's where we're at people. Jerry's gonna be here in 2025.

[00:27:27] All we can hope now is that he does the absolute best he can to put a winning roster on the field because that's all we can root for.

[00:27:34] He is in charge of making this team better so we have to root for him to do so and I will be.

[00:27:38] Ryan-We didn't get to talk about this with Steven Souza Jr.

[00:27:41] I would have been interested to know his thoughts on this but we did dive into more of a philosophical heading approach conversation with Steven Souza Jr.

[00:27:49] Like if you remember Steven Souza was a mariner for six games? It was six right? That's it? 2021?

[00:27:56] Ryan-Was that that view?

[00:27:57] Blake-Yeah, I think it was like six. It was less than ten games not very long.

[00:28:01] Ryan-So he has a very brief mariner's career but he grew up a mariner fan. He grew up in Everett. He went to Cascade High School.

[00:28:09] He's got a lot of really fun stories in his career and he's also got a lot of just breaking down like hitting and how he dealt with different hitting coaches and approaches

[00:28:22] and how it related to the struggles the mariner's are currently going through. I thought was very insightful.

[00:28:28] So I want you guys when you listen to this to pay attention to that because Steven, he was really awesome and gave us some really detailed answers.

[00:28:35] Ryan-Oh, this is a great interview. He like, he really breaks it down from the hitting perspective.

[00:28:40] He breaks a lot of stuff down and he also shares some really cool stories from his career both when he was with Seattle, when he wasn't with Seattle, etc.

[00:28:46] But yeah, like I was pretty blown away from having this conversation. I was like that is a smart dude who really knows baseball or like specifically really knows hitting.

[00:28:55] So we hope you guys enjoy this one.

[00:28:57] Ryan-So let's get you now to that conversation with Steven Souza Jr.

[00:29:04] Alright, we welcome on retired big Ligger, former mariner Steven Souza Jr. on with us. Steven, thanks so much for taking some time to join us.

[00:29:14] There's so many questions that when we look at what the Mariners currently are this season that have been floating around of why they haven't hit this season.

[00:29:23] The batter's eye comes up a lot. So I want to ask you as a hitter and someone who has hit at T-Mobile Park.

[00:29:28] When you step into that batter's box and look out to center field, I want you to tell us what you saw and why something like that could not help a hitter and why people are rightfully complaining about it this season.

[00:29:43] Yeah, you know, I think it's interesting when you obviously have a team that has offensive struggles, you're going to try and find any solution, any answer that you can.

[00:29:53] I think they're running out of them, right? And if you think about the batter's eye there being kind of a new secure thought.

[00:30:00] It's kind of like a last resort. Like what's happening here in the ballpark environment that's not contributing to offensive success.

[00:30:06] You know, if I think back to my time when I'd step in there, it's like nothing really stood out where I'm like, oh man, that's really drastic.

[00:30:13] And there are some places around the league where you're like that can kind of throw you off a little bit.

[00:30:18] You know, in Tampa it was tough a little bit because there's some lighting around on the side that can kind of put some glare on the ball and it takes a second to get used to.

[00:30:26] But you know, I think the one thing when I felt like when I was at T-Mobile Park was like you stepped in the box and it felt like the fences were probably 50 feet farther back than they were.

[00:30:38] Right? And there were some balls that I would get and I was like, man, that ball should be out of here or at least like driven in the gap.

[00:30:44] And they just kind of hang a little bit and people run them down.

[00:30:48] We see Julio run them down in the gap all the time.

[00:30:51] It's like an extra layer up there, a marine layer if you will that just kind of keeps the ball up in a long time.

[00:30:58] I never had the luxury of playing there in July or August where it kind of dissipates.

[00:31:02] It was always in May or the beginning of June where that marine layer was still very visible.

[00:31:08] And so, you know, I don't know about the batters.

[00:31:11] You can definitely when you're kind of in the dugout, you can see it's at like a strange angle which most batters aren't at that kind of like 45 degree angle, which I don't know if it's that drastic, but they're mostly straight on.

[00:31:23] And I know they tried to put like some type of film on it that like some NASA film that kind of got rid of the glare.

[00:31:32] But there is during the day, there is a little bit of a glare off the left side, especially when you have a left hand.

[00:31:38] And the pointer that you can see, it gets a little bit tough.

[00:31:41] So, you know, I know that originally they had trees back there, right?

[00:31:45] And that's they kept dying or something like that.

[00:31:47] But I think if they just made it straight up, it would solve a lot of what we've heard of some of these visual problems going forward.

[00:31:55] Does it do anything for the depth, especially for a right handed hitter because for righties it's farther back than it is for lefties.

[00:32:07] The batter's eye?

[00:32:10] Yeah, the angle of it.

[00:32:11] Yeah, no, that's a good question.

[00:32:14] They're really only one of the few ones that I can think of.

[00:32:17] It's not the only one that has the batter's eye like that angle.

[00:32:20] So it's hard to compare because nobody else has the other side far away.

[00:32:25] I just know that when you think about like one of the best batter's eyes is Oakland, right?

[00:32:30] It's like you see the ball really well there.

[00:32:32] It's straight on.

[00:32:33] Everything's green in the background and black and there's a very good distinction between the ball and the background.

[00:32:41] Even when there's kind of a glare there in Oakland, you still have a better shot there because of how equal the back is.

[00:32:48] And that's what you want.

[00:32:49] You don't want like a depth perception issue at the plate, especially in today's game, right?

[00:32:54] These guys are really good on the mound.

[00:32:56] And if there's a part of you that's like has some depth perception with the batter's eye, that's a very big uphill battle.

[00:33:03] So it never looks slanted to you when you were hitting?

[00:33:06] Like every hitter is different, right?

[00:33:07] Like everybody's going to have a little bit of a different perception.

[00:33:09] But like part of the reason this has come up so much this year is Tiosker Hernandez has publicly talked about now.

[00:33:14] Yeah, it was weird for me to hit there, you would say.

[00:33:17] It said it felt slanted.

[00:33:18] I felt just like off like I couldn't get the depth perception right.

[00:33:21] But to you at least, you didn't have that issue.

[00:33:25] You know, I think when you're playing at least when I was playing, I tried to eliminate those issues of like, hey, even if that was true, I was just like, I'm just going to not even think about it.

[00:33:34] Because the more I kind of ruminate it on it, it would take me away from what I was actually trying to do and put me to disadvantage.

[00:33:40] But I think stepping back and looking at it. Yeah, it's easy to see that there's something off there, right?

[00:33:45] And you know, as baseball players, like when I was in the moment, I was terrible here.

[00:33:50] Like I would come in here and I remember I had like some stretches where I came from Texas when I hit five hits in a game and a Homer in every game.

[00:33:58] And this was our next series and I was hot every time I was coming here and it would cool me off coming here every single time because like you said, something was just off here.

[00:34:08] You know, and he's explaining it from his perspective that it was a batter's eye.

[00:34:12] And for me, it was like I felt like I had to swing as hard as I could to get something out of here.

[00:34:16] But it definitely whatever, you know, way you want to spin it, whether it's just the size of the park or the batter's eye, the angle.

[00:34:24] There is something at T-Mobile Park that makes you want to come out of yourself and do more than you do in other stadiums.

[00:34:31] And anytime you get that kind of mental state in the box, that's a recipe for disaster.

[00:34:36] Is that what you feel like this current team has been doing much of this season?

[00:34:40] Pressing a little bit too hard and almost making it a contagious effect with everyone else?

[00:34:47] You know, I'd be hard pressed to blame it just on the batter's eye to say it's not a contributor.

[00:34:53] I don't think you can fully erase that.

[00:34:54] But you know, these guys have really struggled from beginning to end offensively.

[00:34:59] Like there's really been no answer here.

[00:35:01] And you know, they eliminated two of the most productive players from an offensive last year in Geno Suarez and Teasker Hernandez to eliminate strikeouts.

[00:35:11] And I think that's great.

[00:35:13] That's a great ideology to say, hey, we're going to move the ball forward more so we can create some action.

[00:35:19] We have too much staking outs.

[00:35:20] But when you take away, and I said this in the winter, when you take away 200 RBIs of production, like that is a monster to replace.

[00:35:27] And so I think you're asking back to your question.

[00:35:30] I think you're asking guys to step into rules that they haven't really done their whole life, right?

[00:35:34] Or haven't been consistently good at like those two have been their whole career.

[00:35:38] And when you do that, it goes back to the Adelige is like when anytime you try and do more than you can, it ends up being pretty bad, right?

[00:35:45] And you add on top of it, the guy that's the best player on the team having his worst year so far.

[00:35:52] That's just it's not going to be productive on the field.

[00:35:54] And so, you know, I think you look at that lineup and you know, when you had LA and the Mariners kind of going side by side in the lineup and you're like, there's just nobody that you would take other than probably Julio.

[00:36:05] Right? And that can't happen in a World Series team.

[00:36:08] Even if your pitching is the most dominant pitching, you have to have some stars on that offense in order to carry you.

[00:36:15] So I want to ask you a little bit about your perspective and what you experience as a player when an offensive group would go through a prolonged struggle like this.

[00:36:23] Now, maybe you were never on a team that had it this tough. We're really beginning to end.

[00:36:28] They had issues all year putting the bat on the ball, but when an entire lineup doesn't hit like this, obviously when they get asked about it, they're going to tell the media publicly, hey, we're going to work through it.

[00:36:37] We're always trying to work at it one day at a time, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:36:40] But when you're behind those closed doors and you're in that club, how is it being perceived?

[00:36:46] Are the pitchers starting to get a little antsy? Are they starting to get a little on edge?

[00:36:53] I guess the best way I can just ask it is how does it rub off on everybody in the clubhouse?

[00:37:00] Yeah, I'll answer that in two parts.

[00:37:02] So I was on one team that wasn't very good offensively in my career and that was in 2016 with the Rays and we just struggled.

[00:37:09] And I think the caveat to that was we were like 20 games out of it in August.

[00:37:12] So it's like usually when you have these kind of massive struggles offensively, your team is nowhere near being in it.

[00:37:19] That was kind of the opposite for these guys.

[00:37:21] They had massive struggles but they're in it so they needed to find answers.

[00:37:26] When you're on a team that kind of struggles offensively and you're way out of it, they're just going to go replace you and find guys that can kind of...

[00:37:33] Well, who's going to be a part of the future? Well, they didn't have that luxury this year.

[00:37:36] They needed answers immediately and back to the question is like, I think there's this unspoken rule in the clubhouse where it's like you just don't talk about the pitching

[00:37:47] and the pitchers don't talk about the hitting because we both know how equally hard they are and we could never do the pitching.

[00:37:53] That being said, what a load for an off a pitching staff to carry all year long to the point where we saw in August they faltered a little bit because

[00:38:02] you just can't do it. You can't expect guys to go out every single day for six months and dominate the way they have.

[00:38:09] I mean, it's just this pitching staff has been historically great and they've also been very gracious to the offense in their interviews at every moment, right?

[00:38:18] Saying like, hey, these guys are working hard. We know hitting is hard and just gone about and handled their business the way they should.

[00:38:24] And so I think not only a performance wise to have they done unbelievable, but the way they've handled it. I think inside the clubhouse has been top tier.

[00:38:33] So you played for one of the more numbers driven organizations there is in the race and they have their processes of how they go about getting good hitters and good pitchers.

[00:38:43] And that requires the hitters to sort of buy into the process of the team for what they deem to be productive.

[00:38:50] But, you know, we've heard a lot this season that you can only buy into the process so much and there's a responsibility of hitters as well to go in there and be themselves.

[00:39:01] Because if you only sit there and think about what the team preaches the whole time, it's going to be hard to compete in the batters box.

[00:39:09] How do you remember balancing that for your career?

[00:39:12] That's a great question. I think early on I struggled, right?

[00:39:16] Because you don't have a good feel for that. And you don't really know how to hit at the big league level because hitting at the big league level is just so different than the minor leagues and anything you've ever done.

[00:39:25] So you're trying to figure that out. That's kind of the wrestling match you have in the first probably three years of your career.

[00:39:30] It's like, how do I balance? Like, I know what I'm really good at and what I've been really good at with.

[00:39:34] And I need to kind of figure out how to play this big league game of how they're attacking me and what they're trying to get me to do because, you know, in today's big league game and when I was playing, especially towards the back half of my career,

[00:39:46] I was like, I'm going to get you to chase. I don't want you to swing at my pitch that looks like a strike and then ends up like a ball.

[00:39:53] Well, if that ends up being your strength that looks like a strike, you're going to want to attack, attack, attack, right?

[00:39:58] And then you're susceptible to being behind in count.

[00:40:01] So, you know, in Tampa, at the time they were kind of more involved in pitching and then coming along and hitting.

[00:40:07] And my hitting coach there, Chad Mottola, I thought was really good.

[00:40:12] He was like, hey, listen to me, it doesn't matter what you're going to do up there.

[00:40:15] It just has to be one direct positive thought, right?

[00:40:19] So do that and run with it the whole AB the whole day.

[00:40:22] And we can talk about in between adjustments of the abats, right?

[00:40:26] And so the confidence of like, hey, look, this is what I'm going to do and whether or not I get it, I felt great about that.

[00:40:32] And then I went to the Dodgers.

[00:40:34] And when I went to the Dodgers, it reshaped the way that I thought about hitting in the sense of they wanted you to dictate where you were going to get out, right?

[00:40:44] So for example, if a guy's got a really good fastball, forcing fastball and a good splitter, right?

[00:40:52] The splitter is probably his chase pitch.

[00:40:55] And most of that chase is going to be down.

[00:40:58] Well, if I want to give myself a chance at me at bat, I'm going to take a shot.

[00:41:02] And missing his foreseamer at the top of the zone because there's not as much miss on that, right?

[00:41:08] And so it became this like I have a better chance even though maybe my strength is down in the zone.

[00:41:12] I have a better chance here because the rest of the league is chasing down that splitter is too good to try and beat him down there.

[00:41:19] So I'm going to raise my sights a little bit and I'll swing and miss at a couple of top of the zone because that way if he throws me those splitters,

[00:41:27] maybe I can get into a leverage count where I get a good pitch to hit.

[00:41:30] And then they have that as mine, right?

[00:41:32] So it becomes this idea of dictating the at bat, having the at bat on my terms in the way that I want to get out.

[00:41:38] And look, sometimes you go back to the dugout and you're over four with four keys because that's how good big league pitchers are.

[00:41:44] Now I found those instances more rare than, hey, I'm sticking to this plan and executing it.

[00:41:50] But it's on the guys to the organization can give you that information.

[00:41:55] It's on the players to come together and say, this is the way we're going to do things.

[00:42:01] And ultimately it comes to the individual of I'm committed to that in my bat.

[00:42:05] And if you're not and you want to do your own thing, will you better be successful at that?

[00:42:10] Right? Because it's a game of results.

[00:42:11] So if you're saying, hey, that doesn't work for me and I have to think this way and you're hitting 205 or 175 or whatever it is with a 600 OPS.

[00:42:20] Well, it doesn't work for you.

[00:42:21] Right? So you have to be able to adapt as a big leader and say, okay, this doesn't work for me.

[00:42:25] That's confusing.

[00:42:27] But maybe I'll take the time to learn that because over due time it will become the way to be successful.

[00:42:34] And that's super interesting.

[00:42:36] I guess that speaks volumes to why the Dodgers might be the best organization in baseball.

[00:42:39] Because that whole philosophy is so interesting.

[00:42:41] No doubt.

[00:42:43] And JT, I thought when they brought over JT, he's got that.

[00:42:48] Sitting next to him in the dugout was one of my favorite things to do.

[00:42:50] Like this guy is such a smart hitter.

[00:42:54] And I thought when he came over, I thought when Brent Brown came over that they were going to have this change of philosophy, but you know, they just didn't see eye to eye with the way Brent Brown did things.

[00:43:03] Right? And maybe he didn't have a long enough chance to do it.

[00:43:06] It was only there a couple months and everything.

[00:43:07] Yeah, exactly.

[00:43:09] So yeah, you talk about the individuals and it being on each individual to execute.

[00:43:15] Is it harder than ever now for teams to put in a team philosophy for hitting?

[00:43:20] Because every individual has a private swing coach now that's a big leaker, right?

[00:43:23] So is it hard for teams to say, hey, do it this way when every individual different guy has their own way of going about hitting?

[00:43:32] Yeah, it's probably harder than ever.

[00:43:34] Right? Like having individual swing coaches create such a mess inside.

[00:43:38] And you know, I had one.

[00:43:40] It's actually Robert Ben-Scoyock was my individual hitting coach before he became the big league head coach for the Dodgers and he was incredible at what he did.

[00:43:47] And most of those guys, if not all of those guys are mechanical driven.

[00:43:52] Right? So here's the foundation of the way we teach the swing and whether it's teacher man and sitting your backside and flipping the barrel back or it's Robert and trying to get through and stay linear with the ball.

[00:44:04] Everybody's got their own ideologies of hitting.

[00:44:05] I think that's actually okay to have that, right?

[00:44:08] Like we look through the history of baseball and there's so many different swings.

[00:44:12] So whatever works for you is totally fine.

[00:44:14] Now once that happens and you have your own hitting coach, unless you play in the big leagues, you don't know what it's like to step in the box and like have an approach and put it together.

[00:44:24] And that's why I feel like LA is far above a lot of these teams.

[00:44:27] And even Baltimore is really good at this now.

[00:44:30] But if you get a team to buy into an entire approach and say, hey look this guy is really good at this.

[00:44:37] And unless we stick together on this, we're not going to be successful tonight.

[00:44:41] You know I think of this game where we had against Kevin Gosman when we were playing the Giants, right?

[00:44:46] And this guy was lights out in San Francisco like he was impossible to beat.

[00:44:50] No one could see the splitter.

[00:44:52] It looked exactly the same as they threw it right on the bottom corner.

[00:44:54] And we faced him a couple times during the year and he just tore us up.

[00:44:58] And so we finally came together in the third time we faced him and was like, hey listen, we need to make an adjustment.

[00:45:04] We think we have this tip on him, right?

[00:45:06] And it's like 80% right.

[00:45:08] So some guys are going to look stupid up there, right?

[00:45:11] You're going to guess wrong but it's about passing the baton.

[00:45:15] And we bought into it as a team and we just laid off the splitters, laid them off.

[00:45:20] We saw the tips some of the time.

[00:45:22] Sometimes we chased them.

[00:45:24] And we started out there as a pitcher that he started making up a different changeup.

[00:45:28] Like he started throwing this other changeup that he had earlier in his career and throwing a slider.

[00:45:32] And that wouldn't have happened unless we committed together.

[00:45:36] And I think that's really difficult to do unless you have good leadership and guys that have done it and been successful

[00:45:40] and able to speak from a place of confidence.

[00:45:43] And that's where the Mariners are kind of lacking like they don't have anybody that's been successful like that

[00:45:48] to be able to share with the younger players.

[00:45:50] Carlos Santana I thought was the best sign that they got a couple of years ago

[00:45:54] and turned the whole season around because if you guys remember, you go back,

[00:45:58] they were going downhill and service was on the hot seat as well then.

[00:46:01] And they're bringing these guys that know how to like share this information

[00:46:05] and lo and behold youngsters take it and they run with it.

[00:46:08] So I actually have a really interesting question for you based off that,

[00:46:11] based off a veteran coming in and kind of changing things a bit.

[00:46:15] When did you start to take on this veteran presence of let me share my knowledge with younger players

[00:46:21] while also understanding everybody's competing for a job in the sense of like,

[00:46:25] I remember this story came out about you in spring training when you were with the Mariners

[00:46:29] and you were talking to Jared Kelnick.

[00:46:30] It was his second, it was his first spring after being in the big leagues

[00:46:33] and you're talking to him in the dugout and you're like,

[00:46:36] you know, you're pretty late on when you're loading up and trying to time up the pitcher, right?

[00:46:40] And he had no idea.

[00:46:41] So I guess like, when did you start to take on that sort of role

[00:46:45] and understand that you have knowledge to give other people?

[00:46:49] Yeah, I think, you know, early on you're just trying to figure it out

[00:46:53] and so you're trying to find anybody that has an idea, right?

[00:46:56] And then, you know, I got to Arizona probably about my, you know, fifth year

[00:47:00] and there was guys there that were really smart and you just, Paul Goldschmidt, AJ Pollock.

[00:47:06] I tried to hang around Goldie as much as I could

[00:47:09] and then watch the way that he would talk to younger players

[00:47:12] and then, you know, went to Chicago and saw Anthony Rizzo.

[00:47:15] So I didn't need to do this in different places

[00:47:18] and then being able to come to Seattle and even in LA a little bit

[00:47:24] with the youngsters that came up, it was, you know, this game is really difficult

[00:47:28] and I think when you, in any place of life,

[00:47:32] when you come across somebody that's kind of experienced something similar

[00:47:35] to you, you immediately have this kindred spirit where it's like, hey, let's sit down and talk.

[00:47:40] Right? And with Kellenick it was like the talent was otherworldly, right?

[00:47:44] And being able to see things because I had a pretty good idea

[00:47:47] of what I wanted to do at the dish, right?

[00:47:50] Like there ends up being this combination of stuff, whether it's sink or split

[00:47:54] or, you know, curveball left hander, like you can kind of group approaches together

[00:47:58] once you get a good grasp of the big leagues of how I'm going to do that.

[00:48:02] Now, there's always adjustments mid game and mid effect,

[00:48:04] but once you kind of get an understanding of what each at bat is going to call,

[00:48:08] you can then in turn shift your focus a little bit to young guys that like have no idea, right?

[00:48:14] And be able to prepare them in a way like, hey, why don't you start thinking about things like this?

[00:48:18] You know, the ironic thing about that is in spring training that happened in Kellenick,

[00:48:22] loved it and I talked to a bunch of guys

[00:48:24] and then there was a moment throughout when I went down to AAA for a little bit

[00:48:28] where I was sharing information with all those guys and loved doing it

[00:48:31] and loved being down there and helping those kids.

[00:48:33] And I had, I won't say his name, but I had a front office member in the game in Vegas

[00:48:37] and I was sharing with Marcus Wilson about how to hit a cutter, right?

[00:48:40] And a cutter is a very specific pitch in which you hit and that the farther it gets away from you,

[00:48:47] especially if it's got some ride, like you're going to swing underneath it

[00:48:50] and you're going to be out. That's why Camden Janssen was so good for so long.

[00:48:54] And I told him, hey, why don't you try and get it a little bit closer

[00:48:56] and hits a double and comes back and he's like, so you really try to do a cutter like that?

[00:49:01] And I'm like, yeah, man. When you got guys that throw it hard,

[00:49:04] like you don't have time to kind of play the other way.

[00:49:06] And the front office member there was like, hey, I don't, you know,

[00:49:11] I don't want you sharing this kind of information with guys.

[00:49:13] You know, that's a very unique approach and, you know, respectfully, I didn't.

[00:49:17] I said, hey, that's fine. And I talked to somebody later.

[00:49:20] I just said, you know, it's interesting that I've been in that box now for 10 years

[00:49:23] and I've had success against the cutter and this kid is coming to me asking for help

[00:49:28] and I help him and yet you don't want to be able to talk to that.

[00:49:33] I've never, never in my life, you know, eight organizations that I play for all of them great

[00:49:38] but never have I ever seen organizations say something like that.

[00:49:42] Well, that's interesting certainly.

[00:49:45] And my next question is based off of, I would say the experience of being in the box

[00:49:50] versus someone who didn't have as much experience in the box.

[00:49:53] You know, hearing it a little bit over the last week and change

[00:49:56] with the Mariners making the coaching change with Scott Service

[00:49:58] and the hitting coach with Jarrett DeHart out and Edgar Martinez now inside too.

[00:50:03] As a player, it's not that Jarrett DeHart doesn't know baseball.

[00:50:06] He's obviously very smart.

[00:50:07] You don't get hired as a major league hitting coach without being very smart

[00:50:11] and knowing your stuff.

[00:50:12] But what is the difference when it comes out of Edgar Martinez's mouth

[00:50:15] instead of Jarrett DeHarts?

[00:50:18] Yeah, there's instant credibility, right?

[00:50:20] Like this guy's done it, been successful.

[00:50:22] I think you can go too far, right?

[00:50:24] And say like, Hey, if you played, you're automatically a good hitting coach.

[00:50:28] Like that's not true.

[00:50:29] I've been around plenty of guys that have no idea what they did

[00:50:31] and they explained it the way they did it.

[00:50:32] And that's all they know how, right?

[00:50:34] So it's not just that you played in the big leagues.

[00:50:36] It's that some guys that played in the big leagues,

[00:50:38] they're very good at communicating how to have a good approach,

[00:50:43] how to have a good swing.

[00:50:44] They've kind of taken in the information from the guys

[00:50:46] that they played with in conversations

[00:50:48] and been able to try and fail a little bit.

[00:50:52] Because I do agree with you being with Jarrett.

[00:50:54] I thought JD was very smart.

[00:50:56] Like I thought he knew the swing

[00:50:57] and he actually knew how to like develop a game plan

[00:51:00] with some of the best guys in the league.

[00:51:02] It's just he didn't have the, you know,

[00:51:06] the wherewithal sometimes to say it.

[00:51:08] And so having Edgar as soon as he sits there

[00:51:11] and he says something, you know,

[00:51:15] he's able to get respect right away.

[00:51:20] I want to ask you a little bit about you

[00:51:22] and your connection to Edgar,

[00:51:24] because obviously you grew up around here.

[00:51:26] You grew up a Mariners fan.

[00:51:27] And I remember this story coming out about you

[00:51:29] when Edgar was trying to make his final push

[00:51:31] into the Hall of Fame

[00:51:32] and you told some of the media in Tampa Bay,

[00:51:35] you're like, listen, respectfully,

[00:51:37] I'm like, you guys are kind of on my, you know what list

[00:51:41] because did I see you didn't vote Edgar

[00:51:43] into the Hall of Fame?

[00:51:44] Like what went into you doing that?

[00:51:46] Man, I just love that guy, man.

[00:51:49] Like watching him as a kid,

[00:51:50] I have a picture.

[00:51:51] I just saw my mom's the other day of when I was like

[00:51:54] nine years old of mimicking his stance, right?

[00:51:57] And I just, I watched him so much.

[00:52:00] And I think, you know, Seattle not being

[00:52:03] in the World Series or in the major market

[00:52:06] and talking about how good he was,

[00:52:08] you may have missed how good Edgar was

[00:52:10] and being in Seattle

[00:52:11] and being able to see him every day

[00:52:12] watching him play

[00:52:13] and how dominant he was, how clutch he was

[00:52:17] at the DH position.

[00:52:20] And he just got a little bit lost in there, you know?

[00:52:22] And it was some of it was playful banner

[00:52:23] with Mark Tompkins,

[00:52:26] you know, his vote and whatnot.

[00:52:28] But, you know, I just knew that this guy

[00:52:30] was a generational hitter.

[00:52:31] He had such a unique story of not really taking off

[00:52:34] until he was older than the big leagues

[00:52:35] and then running with this dominant average

[00:52:38] slugging all these different numbers.

[00:52:40] I'm like, we got to really take a look

[00:52:41] at who were put in the Hall of Fame

[00:52:43] because this guy deserves every bit of it.

[00:52:45] So you know what's crazy about that

[00:52:47] is most people just rip you apart

[00:52:50] for even saying something like this.

[00:52:52] But there's a legit argument to be made.

[00:52:54] Edgar was a better career DH

[00:52:55] than Big Poppy was.

[00:52:56] Like you put the numbers next to each other.

[00:52:58] There's a lot of categories that Edgar oust Poppy in.

[00:53:01] The difference is Edgar didn't play

[00:53:02] in a big market like Boston

[00:53:04] and he didn't get as many post-season opportunities

[00:53:05] as Poppy so he wasn't on the big stage.

[00:53:07] Yeah, 100%, right?

[00:53:09] Like if you flip flop that and you put Edgar

[00:53:10] in the same situations that Big Poppy

[00:53:12] was in the playoffs

[00:53:13] and I bet you Edgar's just as clutch

[00:53:20] and he didn't get the luxury of like you're saying,

[00:53:21] playing in the playoffs and some of the best teams

[00:53:23] that they had.

[00:53:24] So not being in that major market on the East Coast

[00:53:27] where you're able to see Big Poppy

[00:53:29] every single day has definitely a distinct

[00:53:32] difference in opinion on a player.

[00:53:34] And so I was just trying to be a voice

[00:53:35] for a guy that has got a very soft voice

[00:53:37] in Edgar.

[00:53:39] Well, you did your part.

[00:53:41] I mean, your little party got in, right?

[00:53:43] It took him 10 years but he got in.

[00:53:44] I'd like to think that I did

[00:53:46] but I think he did it himself.

[00:53:50] And he was the most famous in the sky.

[00:53:51] Did Mark ever end up voting for him, Mark Tomkin?

[00:53:54] After that?

[00:53:55] You know what?

[00:53:56] I think that spring training I came

[00:53:59] and Mark is a very interesting media guy.

[00:54:03] He's very opinionated but he will sit there

[00:54:05] and he'll like hey,

[00:54:06] and I think he did this to me in spring training.

[00:54:08] He's like you know what,

[00:54:08] you actually made some really good points

[00:54:10] and it made me sit back and go look at my vote.

[00:54:14] I can't remember if he switched it or not

[00:54:15] but I do remember he had this humility

[00:54:17] to say like hey, there's actually some valid points there

[00:54:20] and be able to go look back.

[00:54:21] So maybe that vote is what turned it.

[00:54:24] There you go.

[00:54:25] I want to ask you a little bit about your come up

[00:54:27] through the minors.

[00:54:28] I mean you have a really awesome story

[00:54:30] about turning around your baseball career in the minors

[00:54:32] but first since we just talked about 25 minutes

[00:54:36] toward the baseball,

[00:54:37] I want to switch sports for a second

[00:54:38] because you were a legit football recruit

[00:54:41] in high school

[00:54:42] and then after three years of the minor leagues.

[00:54:45] So I want to ask you,

[00:54:47] can we get a player comp of what you were like

[00:54:50] as a football player?

[00:54:53] Man the guys are too physical in athletics today.

[00:54:56] I got nothing.

[00:54:57] The guy that I loved watching growing up

[00:54:59] who I would say was Christian McCaffrey's dad

[00:55:01] was Ed McCaffrey.

[00:55:03] Like that guy was a stud on the Broncos

[00:55:05] and I remember just watching him over and over again

[00:55:07] like that's exactly who I want to be

[00:55:09] when I grow up if I was going to be a football player.

[00:55:12] So football is such a,

[00:55:15] it's such a different mentality than baseball.

[00:55:17] Probably fits more in line with my personality

[00:55:20] and I absolutely loved every minute of it.

[00:55:23] So you were a Washington State recruit

[00:55:25] coming out of high school

[00:55:26] and an offer to play baseball and football there

[00:55:28] when you graduated in 07

[00:55:31] and you go to the minor leagues for three years

[00:55:34] and you have the situation where

[00:55:36] you were struggling

[00:55:37] you thought about quitting baseball

[00:55:39] you put some feelers out there

[00:55:41] for college football teams

[00:55:42] and think if that was still an option for you.

[00:55:45] So could you walk us through first of all

[00:55:47] which teams you talked to

[00:55:48] what your thought process was there

[00:55:50] and then ultimately the decision

[00:55:51] to come back and play baseball again.

[00:55:54] Yeah I mean you hit it on the head

[00:55:55] like I was just so bad for three years

[00:55:59] and you know

[00:56:00] I guess I wasn't bad

[00:56:02] I was very inconsistent

[00:56:03] and the struggle in the minor leagues

[00:56:04] was just like what the heck am I doing

[00:56:06] and so before I got too old I was like

[00:56:08] man do I need to go do something else

[00:56:09] before I run out of time

[00:56:15] and I'm done with baseball

[00:56:16] and as you're sitting there

[00:56:18] you're trying to figure out what am I going to do next

[00:56:20] and you know I sent out an email

[00:56:22] found all the emails for the Pac-12

[00:56:23] coaches around the league

[00:56:26] and got them out

[00:56:27] Oregon State all of them

[00:56:29] and the first one to get back to me

[00:56:31] was Steve Sarkeesian who was at UW

[00:56:32] and I said you know I prefist all these

[00:56:35] emails with like hey I don't need a

[00:56:36] scholarship I have that already

[00:56:38] in my contract that they'll pay for it

[00:56:42] so I don't need any scholarship

[00:56:45] and they'll actually legitimate let me play

[00:56:46] and Sarkeesian was like I don't see a

[00:56:48] downside to this

[00:56:49] why don't we have you out to practice next week

[00:56:52] and we'll go from there

[00:56:53] and you know when that email came in

[00:56:56] I was like whoa this is a reality

[00:56:57] like I have to actually put on the pads

[00:56:59] and go in front of everyone

[00:57:00] and you know memorize a playbook

[00:57:03] again and do all that

[00:57:04] and none of that I'm thinking like

[00:57:06] man I'm going to be five years older

[00:57:07] than some of these kids that are coming

[00:57:08] and this is going to be strange

[00:57:15] but you know

[00:57:16] see what else was out there

[00:57:18] per se and really kind of test

[00:57:19] like do I really want to go back

[00:57:21] and after I got that email I contemplated

[00:57:23] and I was really close to saying

[00:57:26] I'll be there but you know

[00:57:27] I had some friends step in and say

[00:57:29] hey I think you still got some life

[00:57:30] to live in this baseball game

[00:57:32] and went back in the rest of history

[00:57:35] so you weren't ready to get hit again

[00:57:37] you know what

[00:57:38] and I don't think that there was

[00:57:39] targeting just yet right

[00:57:45] what a scary game you know there was guys

[00:57:46] like I had Taylor Maze

[00:57:48] I don't know if you guys remember the name

[00:57:49] this guy was a monster at USC

[00:57:52] and on my visit to WSU

[00:57:54] that's who they were playing

[00:57:55] was USC with Clay Matthews

[00:57:57] and Brian Cushing, Ray Maluga,

[00:58:00] Taylor Maze, Lawrence Williams

[00:58:01] all these guys

[00:58:02] and I watched I forget who was coming

[00:58:04] across the middle but Taylor

[00:58:07] Maze comes in just levels this guy

[00:58:09] and it took him a second to get up

[00:58:11] and then they kind of like ushered

[00:58:15] I don't know if I'm ready to take that hit

[00:58:16] just yet you know

[00:58:17] and so fast forward with Sartes

[00:58:20] and I was definitely a hesitation

[00:58:23] of mine like I just not sure

[00:58:26] I want to take one in my head

[00:58:27] with how big some of these guys are

[00:58:30] so when you were at that low point

[00:58:32] of your baseball career

[00:58:33] can you even put into words

[00:58:35] like the whole this was all worth it

[00:58:39] thought and feeling

[00:58:41] to just a couple years later

[00:58:42] when you make the catch on Jordan

[00:58:46] and I was like yeah it's

[00:58:47] it was crazy fellas

[00:58:49] like coming back

[00:58:50] I never had the expectations

[00:58:53] of like I was going to make it to the big leagues

[00:58:54] like I had struggled for four years

[00:58:56] I had no validation for thinking that right

[00:58:58] and so I just knew I didn't want

[00:59:00] to end my terms on that

[00:59:02] right it was like I'm going to go back

[00:59:04] I'm going to try and change the perception

[00:59:06] of me in the way that

[00:59:07] I've kind of acted these last four years

[00:59:09] and it went really fast

[00:59:12] and the success came really fast

[00:59:14] and getting to the big leagues

[00:59:16] and I think you know a little bit less

[00:59:17] than two years at that point

[00:59:20] to catching Jordan Zimmerman's no hitter

[00:59:23] it was like a whirlwind

[00:59:24] like it wasn't until I got home

[00:59:27] after we went to the playoffs

[00:59:28] that year with Washington was like

[00:59:30] man that low point to this

[00:59:32] it was definitely all worth it

[00:59:34] you know to be able to just hang in there

[00:59:36] and that's a part of the reason

[00:59:38] why I like at the end of my career

[00:59:40] I like pouring into guys like

[00:59:42] Hellnick and Cal

[00:59:44] Donovan Walton where it was just like

[00:59:46] hey look as bad as it can get

[00:59:48] which it was for Kellanick

[00:59:49] and a little bit for Cal early on in his career

[00:59:51] as bad as it can get

[00:59:53] just hang in there fellas

[00:59:54] keep grinding and fighting

[00:59:56] because you just never know when it's going to click

[00:59:59] and if you give up too soon like that

[01:00:01] you may be running away from a dream

[01:00:03] that you don't even know what's to come

[01:00:06] Did you black out on that catch

[01:00:07] Do you remember?

[01:00:10] Yeah I was scared out of my mind being in the left field

[01:00:13] because I was a shortstop

[01:00:14] in a third baseman coming up

[01:00:16] and so this was only like two years of the outfield

[01:00:19] didn't play outfield as a kid

[01:00:20] never it was always the shortstop

[01:00:22] and so to be a quote unquote

[01:00:25] defensive replacement

[01:00:26] at the end of a game

[01:00:27] when somebody's got a no hitter

[01:00:29] I'm like oh my gosh man

[01:00:30] I just don't want to get booed out of this city

[01:00:32] and I'd never be able to show my face around this town

[01:00:37] and so

[01:00:39] I remember that ball being hit

[01:00:40] and just putting my head down

[01:00:43] you know and Jason Worth

[01:00:44] earlier in that year in spring training

[01:00:46] who had taken me under his wing

[01:00:47] had told me hey when you're out here in the outfield

[01:00:50] put your head down and run to a spot

[01:00:52] every day for the rest of the year in BP

[01:00:54] and I did that

[01:00:55] and that was the one moment when it was like

[01:00:57] I actually had to put my head down

[01:01:00] for almost the entire time

[01:01:01] or I would have had no chance of catching that ball

[01:01:03] but I honestly don't know how I got

[01:01:06] from where I was to where the ball was that fast

[01:01:09] I mean I don't know what happened to me

[01:01:12] and then catching the ball

[01:01:13] and hearing I can still hear today

[01:01:15] the elation of 50,000 people at Nats Park

[01:01:18] going crazy which is probably one of the top

[01:01:21] five coolest moments in my career

[01:01:24] I can imagine

[01:01:25] what else is up there with it

[01:01:26] if you could rank a couple of them

[01:01:29] yeah there was a game against Toronto

[01:01:31] when I went four for four

[01:01:33] with two doubles in a homer

[01:01:36] and I think we ended up winning four to three

[01:01:39] something like that

[01:01:40] and I hit a three run homer in the eighth

[01:01:42] to win it

[01:01:44] that was pretty great

[01:01:46] I think being on the field for

[01:01:50] Scherzer's 30,000 strikeout, 2000 strikeout

[01:01:52] that was pretty cool

[01:01:54] to be a part of that

[01:01:56] getting to the NLCS

[01:01:58] fellas is incredible

[01:02:00] and being able to be a part of that run

[01:02:02] with the Dodgers

[01:02:02] and being on that team is up there

[01:02:05] and then there's nothing like hitting a walk-off homer

[01:02:07] in the big leagues

[01:02:08] running around the bases with the crowd going nuts

[01:02:11] and you're sending them home

[01:02:12] and jumping out on home plate with your boys

[01:02:13] those are probably all in the top five

[01:02:16] what was it like getting to watch

[01:02:18] postseason Bryce Harper up close and personal

[01:02:22] dude this guy has just got a flare for the moment

[01:02:25] like it's just never bigger than him

[01:02:27] I think early on

[01:02:29] Bryce was trying to figure out his identity

[01:02:31] like he deep down he knew who he was

[01:02:33] but he was trying to figure out how to wrestle with it

[01:02:35] with how the league was taking that

[01:02:36] because if you guys remember

[01:02:38] the league didn't really accept Bryce very easily

[01:02:42] and I loved Bryce

[01:02:43] like I came up with him

[01:02:44] he was with me in instruction as a 17-year-old

[01:02:47] and he obviously flew faster than I did

[01:02:49] through the minors

[01:02:50] but we played in the big leagues together

[01:02:51] and I always really appreciated Bryce

[01:02:54] I thought he was an unbelievably hard worker

[01:02:56] and as long as he would go to battle

[01:02:58] every single day

[01:02:59] that guy can be on my team every time

[01:03:01] does he love the spotlight?

[01:03:03] Absolutely

[01:03:04] but does he deserve it?

[01:03:05] Absolutely

[01:03:07] being around him in the playoffs that year in 2014

[01:03:10] is kind of what set him up

[01:03:12] for the rest of his career

[01:03:13] when he homered twice off of Hunter Strickland

[01:03:16] in big moments

[01:03:17] and I remember sitting next to Adam the Roach

[01:03:20] on the bench and thinking like man

[01:03:22] this is a different player

[01:03:23] you could see the calmness in the box

[01:03:28] and he was first MVP

[01:03:29] and man he hit the ground running

[01:03:31] but that guy is an absolute stud

[01:03:33] What was he, 21 that year?

[01:03:36] Yeah

[01:03:38] 21 or 22 somewhere in there

[01:03:42] but yeah he was

[01:03:44] a couple years younger than me

[01:03:46] and he had already had two all-stars

[01:03:48] and trying to figure out his way in the league

[01:03:50] I'm like this guy

[01:03:51] just the next world talent

[01:03:53] I was lucky enough to be in two of the most

[01:03:55] generational first pink overalls

[01:03:57] in Strasburg and Harper

[01:03:58] and the Nats got them both

[01:04:00] and it was like

[01:04:01] these guys are just built different

[01:04:03] than the rest of the world

[01:04:04] and watching them go out every day

[01:04:07] and just dominate the rest of the league

[01:04:08] was man what a blessing to watch that

[01:04:10] The last question I have for you Stephen

[01:04:13] is now that you're done playing baseball

[01:04:15] you're spending some time coaching

[01:04:17] you're spending some time doing media stuff

[01:04:18] did you have a sense that once you were done playing

[01:04:21] you wanted to stick around baseball

[01:04:25] and do some of the other stuff

[01:04:27] Um, you know not really on the media stuff

[01:04:29] towards the end of my career

[01:04:31] it was more people kind of saying

[01:04:32] like hey I think you'd be really good at this

[01:04:34] and you should give it a try

[01:04:37] because I love the game

[01:04:38] like I love talking about the game

[01:04:40] as you guys can probably tell

[01:04:41] like I could sit here

[01:04:42] we could do this for probably four hours

[01:04:43] and we could figure out a bunch of different

[01:04:45] things to talk about in the game

[01:04:46] and on top of that

[01:04:48] I love helping people

[01:04:50] and serving people

[01:04:51] and so I did think that there was going to be a capacity

[01:04:54] to be in the game

[01:04:56] whether that be coaching

[01:04:57] or getting involved in the front office

[01:04:58] or something like that

[01:04:59] and I still think that's a very real possibility

[01:05:01] that I'll pursue when the time is right

[01:05:04] but this game is so awesome

[01:05:06] man and the journey that takes you on

[01:05:08] whether you succeed or you fail

[01:05:10] and the things you learn about yourself

[01:05:11] and being able to kind of

[01:05:16] get involved in the game

[01:05:16] because I think that there's just nothing like it

[01:05:18] you know in the ups and downs

[01:05:19] and that's what kills me about this year

[01:05:20] for Mariners fans is

[01:05:22] you know I really want these guys to be successful

[01:05:24] I want Mariners fans to

[01:05:27] to experience that World Series

[01:05:28] and get that championship

[01:05:30] because at the end of the day man

[01:05:32] I think the city like we saw with the Seahawks

[01:05:35] how it turned into kind of a football town

[01:05:37] I think it would be just as much

[01:05:46] as it would be awesome

[01:05:46] we really appreciate you taking some time to join us here today

[01:05:49] hopefully we get a chance to catch up in person sometime

[01:05:51] this has been fantastic

[01:05:52] thank you

[01:05:53] fellas thanks for having me on anytime

[01:05:58] Hope you guys learned a lot from that conversation

[01:06:00] with Steven Souza Jr.

[01:06:02] before we wrap it up let's hear a word from Game Time

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[01:07:11] well that'll just about do it

[01:07:12] for this episode of the Marine Lair Podcast

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[01:07:37] that's TJ, I'm Lyle

[01:07:39] as always we thank you guys for tuning in

[01:07:41] we'll talk to you soon