Episode 218: Jim Callis (MLB Pipeline)

[00:00:00] Welcome to episode number 218 of the Marine Layer Podcast. We welcome on Jim Callis from MLB Pipeline to preview the Mariners' farm system for the 2025 season. We take a look at some sleepers, some of the top guys like Colt Emerson and Cole Young, and just how unique of a prospect Durangelo Sanja is. We'll also talk about the Mariners' last roster spot, focused around Mitch Hanegar and what the Mariners could do with that position with just over a week before opening day.

[00:00:28] Your guys' reminder, make sure you're downloading these podcasts everywhere if you're on the audio side. Go rate and review, leave it five stars. If you're on YouTube, like, comment, please hit that subscribe button. It really does help us out if you do. Go check out our Patreon if you haven't already. That's patreon.com slash marinelayerpod. We're getting really involved over there. We want to get more involved with you guys, so go check that out if you get the chance. Then follow us everywhere on social media at marinelayerpod. Let's get it rolling.

[00:01:08] And we welcome you to this episode of the Marine Layer Podcast, part of the Just Baseball Podcast Network, recording on Tuesday afternoon, March 18th. How, what's a good way to ask this question, Lyle? Have you been getting rowdy with it this spring training? Is that going to be the sequel to Getting Jiggy With It? Or sorry, will it be the third song to Getting Figgy With It, when the Mariners used to play that for Sean Figgins, when he was horrible.

[00:01:38] Hopefully the results would be different. Well, not a very hard bar to clear, I gotta tell ya. Sean Figgins is one of the worst Mariners ever. How about this? How about Rowdy Tellez forcing a storyline in spring training? Shout out Rowdy. We talked about it on here. Our guy, he was the man when we talked to him.

[00:02:00] And through some, I don't know if it's good luck. So let's highlight the background of this before I sort of jump to the main point of this. So in case you've missed out on why we're focusing on this subject to start out this episode, Mitch Hanneker has not played since the first week of March, essentially in spring training. He's been dealing with a nagging shoulder issue. No idea when he's going to be healthy at this point. Or if he's going to be healthy before spring training ends. So that leaves his roster spot.

[00:02:28] Whether or not you actually, at this point, think he's going to make the roster or not. Like, that's a separate discussion from this point I'd say I'm bringing up right now. So his status is uncertain on whether or not he's making the roster. That would leave a spot open for someone like Rowdy Tellez to potentially make it. And there's a couple of other guys that are sort of floating around at this point. But Rowdy, I think, Lyle, is the most interesting case for this Mitch Hanneker roster spot.

[00:02:54] So here's the first question I'm going to present to you. Because we can look at this a couple of different ways. I think it's safe to assume right now, the way Mitch Hanneker is. And based on where we are at the calendar, right? The idea the Mariners could sell to us right now, if they feel like Rowdy Tellez is good enough to make the roster. Is that Mitch Hanneker starts the season on the 10-day IL. And Rowdy starts on the Mariners bench as their left-handed hitting first baseman. Is that fair?

[00:03:25] Yeah, I think so. Well, so here are what the bench spots are going to be, right? One's the backup catcher. That's going to be Garver. One is going to essentially be the fourth outfielder. So hypothetically, if... Well, it's interesting because you'd usually think of Raley as the fourth outfielder, except he's going to play first base. But anyway... On this bench, he might be. Okay, so... Roster configuration. But he wouldn't be on the bench. Let's call it Raley then. So Raley's one. Garver's another.

[00:03:55] In this scenario, Rowdy would be one because he'd take Hanneker's spot. And then the final spot on the roster would go to either Miles Mastroboni or Leo Rivas. Is that right? Wouldn't that be Bliss? Or are we assuming him and Demo are both in the lineup? Yeah. They'd both be in the... Well... And then we got Solano to figure out here too. But Solano and Rowdy is like... That's a spot that gets occupied no matter what. Right. Right, it does. So...

[00:04:24] I just thought there was... I thought I did the math right where there is a spot for either Mastroboni or Rivas. I could be wrong on that. I think Mastroboni has a spot. But I think in this scenario, we assume... We're not painting anyone as a DH right now. Let's just remember that in the starting lineup. Unless you're assuming... Unless we're skipping somebody. I don't think we're skipping anybody. So say they need to put a DH in there. So our ideal scenario in this... And I think it works way better for the Mariners roster. It fits better.

[00:04:52] So Hanegar's on the aisle to start the season. Rowdy makes the roster. Rowdy plays first base against righties. Donovan Solano plays first base against lefties. That works out. Luke Raley no longer has to play first base. As long as Rowdy's on the roster. So they put him in the outfield. Because I think that's his best spot. You put him in left field. And then you move Randy Rosarena into DH. And then you have a full-time DH. And that works out really well at that point. It gives your roster a little bit more versatility.

[00:05:21] You get more athletic on the bench. I can't believe putting Rowdy on the roster makes you more athletic. But technically it does. Based off of what you can do with the rest of your roster. And then it puts your worst outfield defender in Randy Rosarena. In a DH only role that he could focus on. And you're essentially saying by doing that. That when a lefty would be on the mound. Instead of Randy having to go back out into the outfield. You just put Dylan Moore out there. Correct. Yes. And then you have Bliss at second. So it works.

[00:05:51] Right. The roster fits a lot better when you put Rowdy Tellez on it. As opposed to Mitch Hanegar. Because I think Mitch Hanegar right now is a, from what it sounds like, is a DH only. Occasional days perhaps in the outfield. But for the most part, he's only going to hit. The injury might be one of convenience for the Mariners. As they are going to give themselves probably a two or three week sample. To look at Rowdy against everyday big league competition. In April. Hitting in the ballpark.

[00:06:21] Not hitting in Peoria. Not hitting where it's warm. To make more of a decision on this. Sort of delaying the decision they're going to have to make with their roster. Before committing on it. But it does definitely present something that I think is very interesting. It would be a lot more interesting if Mitch Hanegar was healthy. Coming up to the end of spring training. And they actually had to make a decision on this. Let's just play that exercise right now. Let's either say Mitch gets back into games. In the next day or two. Or let's just play the hypothetical and say he was fully healthy.

[00:06:51] Then what happens? Hard to. That's a really tough. That's a loaded question right there. Because we don't know how he's performing. What if his at-bats look great? They didn't look great before he stopped playing. They didn't look great. But he could. It's spring training. You can have a hot week and your stats look great. Your at-bats look really good. Right? I feel like Mitch. Like we're playing hypotheticals here. So I'm going full hypothetical. Well let me be a realist instead.

[00:07:18] I think Mitch Hanegar's roster spot has something to do that does not involve his at-bats. You're right. But then you sell. Then if you're Jerry DiPoto you go to ownership and you say you're paying him no matter what. It does not matter. Your payroll will go up by a million and a half dollars if Rowdy Tellez makes this roster and you cut Mitch Hanegar. And that is my take on this. My take on this is look let me preface this by saying I love Mitch Hanegar.

[00:07:47] Fans love Mitch Hanegar. What he's done since he got here in 2017 and even with the year off when he was in San Francisco and signed there in free agency. From what he did from 17 to 22 he was a fan favorite for a reason. He had a six win season in there. He was an all-star. He was loved. He was a great defender at one point in his career. In 2021 he was the catalyst of that offense that needed offense. He's done amazing things here.

[00:08:11] But it is okay to say from a pure baseball perspective he just does not make this roster better. And that 15 and a half million dollars is essentially a sunk cost one way or another. And unfortunately because again I do love Hanegar. He provides more value at this point not playing for the roster than being on it. So if you're the Mariners and you have to pay him one way or another I think it's just time to cut ties.

[00:08:37] The Mariners were hoping I think that he showed up to spring training this year and he looked a little bit more rejuvenated. And so and likes like he could be a DH off the bench which like let's be real again. We do love Rowdy great personality. Tim Booth wrote an article about him in the Seattle Times today on Tuesday. It was great. You learn to learn a lot about Rowdy and chances of making the roster and all that kind of stuff.

[00:09:02] But let's not act like he offers too much more say defensive versatility than Mitch Hanegar does. But this is a lot different based on where the Mariners positional needs are right now. If Mitch Hanegar was a first baseman and could play first base we would be having a little bit different of a discussion. And the Mariners would have an easier selling point to putting Mitch on the roster. But he's got nowhere to play. That's the problem.

[00:09:24] Number one keeping a guy on your bench to only be a DH when he can't hit is not kind of malpractice. It is malpractice. It is malpractice. That's malpractice. Number two like you're seeing what having Hanegar on the roster does in terms of not log jamming your roster but essentially freeing it up. And it's like keeping it stuck in neutral because you just highlighted what having Rowdy on the roster instead does. It does not force Luke Raley to play first base.

[00:09:54] I'm sorry like the guy's not a first baseman. He is a better outfielder. He should be in the outfield. So it lets Raley play the outfield. It doesn't force Randy to play the outfield. He could just hit instead. And it lets Dylan Moore be freed up a little bit too to play his best spot in the outfield. It really is amazing how much Rowdy Tellez does for this roster by being on the roster compared to Hanegar. But yeah I think even if he wasn't banged up with this injury right now I still wonder if there's a world where the Mariners just cut ties before the end of camp.

[00:10:24] Because say Rowdy doesn't work out right? Are you sure the best answer is waiting for Hanegar to get back off the IL and just inserting him back? Why don't you bring up Leo Rivas from AAA and give your roster more speed and versatility? Or if you want a left-handed first baseman Austin Shenton. Right. Or Tyler Locklear if you want the righty. Yep. It works out. So the other options besides Rowdy are Leo, Austin Shenton, and Tyler Locklear I'd say at this point. Sure. Or if you want an extra outfielder in Cade Marlowe.

[00:10:52] But again the Mariners if Master Boni's on the roster have all the outfielders they need. I said this in the offseason and I think it's as relevant as ever right now. We are going to learn a lot about just how serious the Mariners are about putting a true winning product on the field based on how they decide to operate Mitch Hanegar in his 2025 season.

[00:11:18] And I think we'll have a good idea of that this weekend because in Rowdy's contract I think this weekend is when Rowdy can go and ask the club if he's making the team. They have 24 hours to respond and if not he can ask for his release. Right. And we will probably get an answer here in the next week or so. You're right. We will get it here in the next few days. But even just with this roster as a whole. Look we could rehash every single thing about this offseason if we wanted to. You'll never get me to shy away from doing that for the most part. Anyway.

[00:11:47] Point being this is the roster they have now. And the guys they have in camp and in Peoria are the guys that they are from some extent to another going to roll with. So we still get to see how serious are they going to take putting this roster together. Because I'm sorry if you're keeping Mitch Hanegar on it from what we saw last year and what we've seen so far this year in spring. I think it's telling to what's being prioritized. I really do.

[00:12:12] If they decide to just cut ties with him or if they start him on the IL and then once he comes back then maybe they decide to let him go. That'll be telling. Saying okay they understand it's just not a fit with the roster and they understand he's probably just not going to help enough. Yep. They keep him around and let his spot linger all year and then they don't have versatility off the bench and they don't have speed and they don't have defense. That'll be telling too in terms of what they'd be prioritizing. So it'll be interesting to see how they roll with it. Couldn't have said it better myself dog. Okay. Well good.

[00:12:42] I'm glad we're on the same page. I'm guessing most fans are on the same page. So yeah. All right. Before we get to Jim Callis which was an awesome conversation. Let's take a quick pause. We're going to talk to you guys about our friends over at Pogaccia's Pub 85. You guys know it's an awesome spot to go hang out. March Madness. Time's ticking here people. The main event starts Thursday and if you need a place to go watch with your friends head over there because there's 20 TVs in that place. You can sit. You can watch all the games. You can have some great food and if you go during happy hour.

[00:13:09] Yeah you can you can best believe during all a happy hour there will be games going on because it's going on all day for March Madness. You'll get drinks that are three and four bucks. Awesome drink specials. So head over there. Plan a time with your friends. That's over at Pogaccia's Pub 85 in Kirkland. Always enjoy getting Jim Callis on for the national perspective on the Mariners farm system. I don't know about you Lyle. I've really liked talking with him about Durangelo. When we were out there in Peoria on the patio.

[00:13:38] The three of us talked about Durangelo for probably 20 minutes straight on how unique this is. What kind of challenges this stuff presents. He talks about it a little bit in this interview of what the Mariners are dealing with this year and how they approach it and why a lot of guys aren't that are two-way players don't end up being two-way players as pros and sort of the lasting impact you know that has on guys development. So I thought that was very interesting along with a lot of very valuable nuggets on the Mariners farm system.

[00:14:08] He's great. It's really cool. Jim's somebody I connected back with when I was in college and he's been a legend in this industry forever now and it's cool that he's become a friend of ours and become a recurring podcast of ours because the Mariners farm system has never been more interesting than it's been in the last I'll say six to seven years. And people are as interested in prospects, specifically Mariners prospects, as the fan base has ever been.

[00:14:34] So every year toward the start of the year when we get to have Jim on and pick his brain about every single really unique, interesting Mariners prospect, it's about as easy of a one-stop shop and guide for Mariners fans as you can get going into the year. Because you want to be up to date and up to speed about what you need to know about these guys heading into the year? Listen to this interview with Jim and in these 35, 40 minutes, you'll have everything you need. Won't keep you guys any longer. Let's get you to the interview with Jim Callis.

[00:15:05] All right, we've got Jim Callis on with us, now recurring guest. He's the senior writer for MLB Pipeline and also prospects writer for MLB.com. Jim, thanks for hopping on with us. As always, how was your trip around the Grapefruit League and the Cactus League this year? It was good. You know, it was kind of two entirely different trips. I ran into you guys in Peoria. When I was in Arizona, kind of my mission was twofold.

[00:15:30] I was doing 30 camps and 15 days stuff for MLB Network, which was a prospect interview in each camp. Pretty quick prospect interview. And then talking to farm directors for the spring reports, which have now started to run on our website. And they're a blur. I feel like I wrote the Mariners one already. Anyway, I'm not even sure. I have 10 of them to write. The Mariners one did come out. It ran a week ago, which is why I can't remember it. Most of mine are running this week.

[00:15:59] And then when I was in Florida, I was running around doing spring breakout stuff. So I broadcast two games. I went to two other games. So it was a lot of fun. I mean, I'll admit, I enjoy spring breakout. Arizona is a lot easier than Florida. You're driving all over the place in Florida. It's just a lot easier in Arizona. But both were a lot of fun. How long did you guys spend in Arizona? Six days. Yeah. Basically a week. And yeah, we got to see a lot.

[00:16:28] We didn't get to see as many camps as you did because we were basically tied down at one camp. But we saw a lot of the prospects. And I got to tell you, there is an exciting bunch of guys that are in this group. And I think you'd probably second that statement, right? Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, the Mariners have seven top 100 prospects. That ties the Cubs for the most on our list. All of them are position players. But I keep telling people, fans, you know, yes, you look at the Mariners system and you can't help but notice that they have seven top 100 prospects and all position players.

[00:16:58] But Durangelo Saint-Jae and Ryan Sloan, their top two picks in last year's draft, are really interesting pitchers. And they have some arms as well. So, I mean, it's one of the best farm systems in baseball. So, yeah, a lot of excited players. How much of a gap, Jim, is there between the number one farm system and the number five? The Tigers were number one. The Mariners were number five. I don't know how much input you get on the entire top three and what the decision-making process goes towards that.

[00:17:25] But what's the real difference between those two slots of, like, where the Mariners system is at? Yeah, you know, I think this year was different in that in past years, a lot of times it's been easy to look at, say, the Orioles. Like, oh, they got, you know, Adley Rutschman and Gunnar Henderson in later years. You know, Jackson Holliday and, you know, and Kerstad and Kouser and so on. Jordan Westberg. And it's loaded. Or some of the teams. A lot of, there's some years where you look and you're just like, oh, man, that team's by far the best. I really feel like this year it's more, I don't think there's a big gap at all between

[00:17:55] one and five. I think it's just a matter of kind of a personal taste. Like, we have Sam Dykstra and Jonathan May and I work equally on those. I actually had the Dodgers as my number one farm system. But I think when you throw the Rays and the Red Sox and the Tigers and the Dodgers, I think it's more really a matter of taste as opposed to, oh, there's this big difference. There's not a large gap between the Tigers at one and the Mariners at five.

[00:18:26] Before we start getting into some of the specific players, I am curious because the Mariners have had a few different waves of prospects come up through this regime. And now they're about to have another big one here in the next year or two. How similar is the talent and the upside between the wave of prospects that's making its way through the system now and the one that's made its way up over the last few years, a.k. the Logan Gilberts of the world, the George Kirby's of the world, the Julio's of the world, et cetera? Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest difference is it's the pitchers versus the hitters.

[00:18:56] I mean, obviously Julio's very good and Cal Raleigh. I mean, well, Cal Raleigh's a better player than I think a lot of us thought. You know, Kelnick didn't necessarily pan out. But like a couple of years ago, if you asked people, you know, what are the Mariners excel at doing on the development side? They would have said pitchers. You know, Bryce Miller's another one. Brian Wu. And I think now, like, even though I'm the biggest Ryan Sloan fan in the world and I really like Saintia and some of the other guys as well, you can't help but notice it's just hitter after hitter after hitter.

[00:19:25] And the interesting thing is the oldest one of those guys is Harry Ford, who is 22. And as we record this, he hasn't even been 22 for a month. I mean, it's all, you know, right now, Cole Emerson's 19. Montez is 20. Cole Young's 21. I just mentioned Ford's 22. Celestin's 19. Farmello's 20. Michael Arroyo's 20. I mean, these guys are super, super young. And you can even extend that. I mean, Sloan's 19 and Saintia's 21.

[00:19:53] I have not tracked this, but I'm going to guess that's probably, of all the farm systems in baseball right now, the youngest group of top 10 prospects that anybody has. And they're all very talented. Let's start off, Jim, if we're going to get into the specifics with the guy, I think, who's the most interesting prospect in all of baseball. And that's Durangelo St. Joe. We saw him for the first time professionally in the spring breakout game last week.

[00:20:19] When you take a look at him, how do you judge looking at someone who's got a couple of different profiles, one with each arm and, you know, how the Mariners are going to go forward with them this year? Yeah. I mean, it's really unique. Because, I mean, when you think of switch pitchers, you think of Pat Venditti. And Pat was more of a reliever who was doing it. Like, he needed every edge he could get because he just didn't have overpowering stuff. And with Saintia, the interesting thing is, and I was telling you guys down in Bioria,

[00:20:46] I argue with Greg Amstinger at MLB Network about this all the time. Like, Greg wants the fun stuff like Saintia switch pitching and Jack Hagliel being a two-way guy. And I always kind of argue, I want the guy to be the best big leaguer he can become. And I'll be curious to see how this unfolds. Because Saintia is really two different guys. As a righty, he's a starter. He could be up to 97, 98. It's a mid-80s slider that could show more power than that. And he's got some feel for a changeup. And from the left side, it's more of a reliever look. It's a lower slot.

[00:21:16] It's a sweeping low-80s slider. It's a low-90s fastball. It's two entirely different things. And like, yeah, if we were playing Stratomatic, it'd be cool if I could have a right-handed Saint-Jacquard and a left-handed Saint-Jacquard and just flip them back and forth. But like, the amount of time he has to put in into keeping both arms healthy and ready to go, like, it's interesting. I mean, the Mariners are clearly, you know, he wants to try it out. Want to see what it looks like. And we're going to let him switch pitch at least at the start of his career.

[00:21:44] But I do kind of wonder, would he be better off if he just focused on pitching right-handed and you maximize that three-pitch starter profile? So we'll see. But like, he's, I can't remember too many guys like him. And I mean, I know you guys know this and your listeners may not. You know, he was not, even in college, it wasn't just lefties versus lefties, righties versus righties. In college, like, he was more traditional in that way as a freshman.

[00:22:14] But last year, when he had a lot of success at Mississippi State, it was, the coaching staff looked at matchups. And, you know, specifically, does this lefty on the other team struggle against lefties? Okay. Then maybe he's getting left-handed Saint-Jacquard. But if it's a guy who hits, like a left-handed hitter who's a pretty good hitter, they want to attack him with the clearly better stuff from the right side. So he did not pitch lefty. It wasn't just straight platoon. It won't be, I guess it won't be this, you know, in pro ball either.

[00:22:43] But I'll be curious how that shakes out. Because it's one of those things, it's cool on paper, but the amount of work, extra work you have to do to be able to pitch with both arms rather than one, I don't know. Part of me, I am fascinated by it, but it makes me think it detracts, like, it makes me wonder, like, what if he just focused on the right arm, you know, how much better could he be? You know what I want to know, really quick, TJ, before we move into some of these other

[00:23:11] guys, Jim, you said, I know a lot of your listeners know this and you guys know this. You know what I'm not sure they know? I'm not sure how many listeners we know, or we have that know what Stratomatic is. I'm not kidding. Really? Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm old. I'm 57, so, I mean, they have a computer version now, but, like, Stratomatic was Dice Baseball, and they had these cards. And it's funny, like, there's a lot of people who are kind of my age. Joe Sheehan, you know, who I think is one of the best baseball writers around, he talks all the time.

[00:23:42] It really helped hone my understanding of the game when I was growing up playing Stratomatic Baseball because of, like, platoon matchups and the importance of defense and ballpark factors maybe not quite as much, although there was some element of that, like, how to try to set up a lineup so you wouldn't be vulnerable if a guy had an ace lefty and you had, like, I don't know, it taught me a lot. I play a lot of Stratomatic Baseball back in the day.

[00:24:10] And it really did, I think, help inform my mind in terms of how the game worked. No, I mean, I've played stuff like Diamond Mind and Pursue the Pennant as I get older, and those are, you know, online games. But, yeah, Stratomatic does have an online version. So, my dad and my brother and I, on all these weekend mornings growing up when we were kids, we would play all the time, and we loved it. And similar to you, it taught me all this stuff about baseball.

[00:24:39] But just because it's one of these old board games and kind of an old-fashioned thing, I just, I'm sitting there thinking to myself, I was like, I don't know how many people like me were playing that stuff. Like, TJ, do you even know what that is? I'm going to put you on the spot. No. Nope. Don't know Stratomatic. Well, I'll go real obscure for a second. The first game, first baseball game I ever had as a kid when I was like 9 or 10 was, well, maybe the first game I had was All-Star Baseball. I don't know if you guys ever saw that with the spinners. I played that too.

[00:25:07] You had these circular discs, like they were paper, and they were sliced into like slices of pie, kind of. You know, like the home run would be a certain width. And you spun. There was less strategy in that game. That is how I learned about a bunch of the legends in baseball before my time. Yeah. Not the really famous ones, not the Babe Ruths and the Ted Williams of the world, but that game, because we played that one too. It had Lou Brock, and it had Ralph Kiner, and it had Willie Clark. I thought you got Babe Ruth in every game of All-Star Baseball. I thought they threw him.

[00:25:36] Maybe you did. You didn't have Babe Ruth in your version? I don't think so. Okay. Because you had it like, the thing that was crazy about that game though is the pitcher didn't matter. Because it was just, it was all based on the hitter's results. But I'd say the first game that really shaped my like knowledge of baseball, I remember seeing an ad in like Baseball Digest when I was like 9 or 10 years old. And it was a game called Shurko, and it was another dice baseball game, but it had this thing that unfolded. I guess it was like 32 squares by 32 squares, and each square represented 15 feet. And so where the ball was hit was different.

[00:26:06] Like they had ballpark kind of like maps. And so like you saw how like Fenway played different than Yankee Stadium. And it was really cool. You'd roll dice to see what happened to the ball, and you'd put the ball in play, and then you'd see if your fielders could get to it and so on. Yeah. Dice baseball was essentially talking a foreign language to me. Yeah, I was going to say dice baseball was very cool. But now with computers, they can do all the work for you.

[00:26:34] I have one last quick thing on Durangelo for you before we move on to some others. You were kind of talking about it with us both down in Peoria and a little bit here before we started recording. But you were saying as a righty, Durangelo gets comp to prime Marcus Stroman, right? Yeah. It's like Marcus Stroman from the right side and like a lefty reliever. Yeah. From the left side. And like, again, I mean, it is fascinating. And I think that, look, I think the Mariners are doing the right thing because I don't think

[00:27:02] you can draft this guy and just be like, okay, Durangelo, you're a right-handed pitcher now. Like, I think they wanted to go out and experience pro ball and see how it works and see, again, the fans just see. It's like with Shohei being a two-way player. Like, Shohei makes it look easy. And the amount of work he has to put in, the amount of work you have to put in to be really good at either pitching or hitting, and the fact that he finds enough time to do it to do both is crazy. But I think the Mariners are going about this the right way.

[00:27:29] I just, like I said, Greg Amstinger can say I'm no fun. But I would want to maximize his upside from the right side as a starter rather than kind of the novelty that he can pitch with both arms. I was going to add this, and it kind of feels like Shohei is, it's not his intention, but he's kind of ruined it for everyone. It's like, oh, he makes it look, he does make it look so effortless. So more of these guys should be able to do this. Yeah, I mean, right.

[00:27:58] Like, for example, people were calling Jack Caglione, Jack Tawny at Florida. But the reality is he probably wasn't a good enough pitcher to really be considered a pro pitcher. He threw hard. I mean, he did throw hard, but he wasn't as advanced. And you would, if the Royals were trying to develop him both ways, they would run into the backwards situation that happened with the Rays with Brendan McKay, who they tried to develop both ways, where Brendan McKay was ready for the big leagues as a pitcher, but he was struggling in double A as a hitter. And then, like, what do you do? Like, he wound up getting hurt, so we didn't find out.

[00:28:27] But I think Brendan McKay probably would have focused on pitching because there's, you couldn't give him big league at-bats when he wasn't ready to hit big league pitching, but he was pitching the big leagues. And the same thing with Jack. Like, I think Jack as a hitter is going to be in the big leagues, I don't know necessarily this year. Let's say early 2026. Like, he wouldn't be ready. It might be 2027 or early 2028 as a pitcher. So, like, what are you going to do? Like, is he just going to, I mean, is he going to throw bullpens and pitch occasionally in relief? Like, that's not going to develop.

[00:28:57] And so, like, Shohei obviously was kind of fully formed when he came over. But, like, even as a prospect, even the guy did both in college, like, the chances are that he's going to be equally good and ready for the big leagues at the same time both ways. That's almost impossible to line up. Jumping back to the top of this list, Jim, let's go to Colt Emerson. Someone who I think a lot of Mariner fans and some prospect evaluators out there think

[00:29:24] could be a number one prospect in baseball at some point this year or next year before he makes his debut. So, Jim, if you do believe that, what would that have to look like for Colt Emerson? What would people have to sort of see with his performance for him to achieve that mark? Yeah, I mean, I think he probably moves up and he could want to be number one potentially. You know, I think for him to do, I mean, on one hand, I think he's one of the best pure hitters in the minor leagues.

[00:29:52] I think everybody kind of agrees on that. I think if he's going to be the number one prospect in baseball or jump into the top five, I mean, and not putting any pressure on Colt who won't be 20 until the end of July, I just think it would mean that the power took a big jump forward this year. I mean, I think right now you're projecting him as a well above average hitter with average power. So if we're going to put him at the top of the list, then I think we're probably all convinced that he has plus power. I think that would be the biggest key.

[00:30:20] I mean, he can do something. He has a good arm. He plays okay defense, average runner. But ultimately, his value is going to come down to how much he hits. Like, there's a question, is he a shortstop? Is he a third baseman? And yeah, he'd have more value as a shortstop. If he hits like he's capable of, and let's say he developed into plus power, he's still going to be a very good player if he's third base rather than shortstop.

[00:30:45] So I think for him to jump up to the top of the list, we know he's going to hit. It's going to center around that power piece. What do you define as average power? Do you think he'd be like a 15 home run a year in the show type of guy? To me, average is 20 homers. Like 15 would be like 45 power. Plus power would be 30. So yeah, for him to make that jump, and again, he's 19 years old.

[00:31:15] He didn't hit for a ton of power last year. He hit four homers in 70 games. And he was a little banged up. But I think it's in there. And I think he's obviously going to get stronger. And I think he's got the hitting ability to barrel balls a lot more easily than a lot of guys. So as he gets stronger and he turns on more pitches, I think we will see more power. I don't know if it'll be true plus power. Like it'll be 30 homer power or if we're talking 25 or 20.

[00:31:44] But I mean, I think that's kind of the... I mean, 20 homers power would be fine. But I think that's kind of the biggest question about him. Because like I said, even if he wants to... If you want to... You'd rather end play short. A lot of people think he'll wind up at third. The Mariners have a lot of infielders. But if he winds up being a well above average hitter and hits 20 home runs, I mean, that's still an all-star at third base. Do you put much context into spring training specific at-bats? And I ask this because...

[00:32:14] Zero? Okay. I mean, I shouldn't say... So I might not even finish my question. No, no. I didn't mean to cut you off. You should finish your question. I was going to say I don't because it's... I put almost none because it's such a small sample size. The quality of competition varies from the first inning to the game to the ninth inning to the game. I do like a baseball reference where they try to give you like an experience index. You kind of have a vague idea of what type of competition you're facing.

[00:32:38] But it would be more if I was really bearing down watching the game or watching video and I'm like, oh, that's a good swing or that's a good take as opposed to, oh, that guy's 8 for 17 type of thing. I will just say I marvel at the fact watching him against some big league quality arms and then think of the context that he's played a grand total, including Fall League, 107 professional games ever. Yeah, no.

[00:33:05] And like I said, and again, I haven't looked at him specifically and been like, oh, it's a good swing. But like, yeah, like I would take that more into account, like actually watching in person than, you know, or on the flip side, if somebody went one for 13, like, oh, man, I'm not sure about that guy. Because and like, like you said, even if he struggled, he's 19 years old. So and he's barely played. Well, you talk about Colt being a guy that his prospect value is for the most part going to come through his bat.

[00:33:31] If we're going to talk about a prospect whose value is essentially all going to come through his bat, you guys at Pipeline have Lazaro Montez at two on the Mariners top 30 and another top 100 prospect. So obviously that gets us excited because it leads us to ask just how much do you believe in that bat? Yeah, he's interesting. I mean, I think everybody believes in the power. He's a career 291 hitter in the minors. He doesn't strike out like for as young as he is and the power he has. He doesn't strike out excessively.

[00:34:01] So I'm pretty bullish on him. But you're right. I mean, he's a left field. He's best case scenario left fielder, worst case scenario a DH. I mean, you're hoping this is a 30 plus home run guy. And like so far, he looks kind of on track to do that. What is there a comp from defensively besides Jordan? No, well, it's funny because I was going to say like and I just go on our marriage list. So I'm not Mr.

[00:34:29] Compton to begin with and I haven't thought about guys, but I was going to say Jordan. I think Jordan's a better hitter than Montez is. You know, Montez, you know, has similar raw power. But yeah, that was where I was going. Trying to think of guys who have a huge offensive ceiling and are at best a mediocre left fielder. That's where I was going.

[00:34:52] I wouldn't say his ceiling's as high because I just don't know that he's going to hit for average like Jordan does. But the power is certainly impressive. At this stage of their development, where where was Jordan at? Oh, I think well, Jordan. I'm trying to think because I think I can't remember. I just have to look it up because I can't remember how old Jordan was with the Cuban sign.

[00:35:17] It's not like they always signed 16, although I think he was fairly young when he debuted, right? Yeah, but so maybe he was pretty I think he was. Now, he made his pro debut and he was 19 years old. So he was a little bit older. Like so when he was Montez's age, because Montez, when Montez was 19, Montez, you know, had the year he had last year between the two A-teams where he had 21 homers.

[00:35:44] When Jordan was 19, he had just signed and he was in the DSL. So he had 44 at-bats in the DSL. So we didn't really have a good feel who he was. We knew. I did our Astros list at the time. After they traded and got him from the Dodgers, we were up. It was we must have been updating our list. Or maybe we updated. Anyway, I added him to our Astros list after the trade. But like at number 30, just because I knew the Astros liked him, but we didn't really know what he was.

[00:36:13] And like I said, he had 44 at-bats in DSL. When he spent his first year in the U.S., he was a year older than Lazaro. He was an A ball and high A also. Hit 12 homers, not as many as Lazaro, but he hit 305. So, yeah. I mean, you can't really compare it. Like I said, Jordan barely played at the same age. Sure. Just how good can Felney and Celestine be? Because this guy, I mean, he spent a lot of last year injured.

[00:36:43] But the upside with him, I think there's a lot of people that believe it could be as good as anybody in this system. Yeah, no, I think that's fair. I mean, and the thing is, like, he really doesn't have a chance to play that much because of the injuries. You know, he's played 32 games in a complex league. I mean, it's not. I mean, it's a light year. It's pro ball, but it's light years from the big leagues. So, I think it's also easier to dream on guys who, I mean, he hasn't failed. He hasn't had a chance to fail. But, no, I mean, it's.

[00:37:09] I mean, you could be talking about a short stop with 55 tools across the board. You know, and he's a switch hitter. And he's still just 19. But I agree. Like, you could argue he has the highest ceiling because I think he's a better hitter than Montez. He's a better. Power might be comparable to Cole Emerson's. But I think he's got a better chance to play shortstop than Cole Emerson.

[00:37:36] So, I mean, you know, you could see a pretty good offensive and defensive player. I think he's probably a little quicker than Cole Emerson. You know, he's definitely got more power than Cole Young, that type of thing. So, yeah, I think it's fair. Like, we just. I'm sure you guys are, too. I'm very curious, you know. And, again, he's just going to be 19 all year to see how he does in single A this year. So, people are going to get to see Cole Young on a big league diamond, I think, at the middle of this upcoming season.

[00:38:03] What are fans going to see when Cole eventually, you think, gets up this year? Yeah, I mean, he's a hit over power guy. He's hit everywhere he's been. I think he's probably more of that 12 to 15 homer guy. You know, solid runner. You know, I think he has good range at shortstop. He has the hands with the arms average. And, look, you can compensate, you know, by making accurate throws and get rid of the ball quickly.

[00:38:33] But still, I'd suggest that most big league shortstops have a plus arm and not an average arm. So, maybe he winds up at second base in the long run. But, sorry, my dogs are rattling their collars behind me. But, he's interesting. That, to me, is the question. Is whether he's a shortstop or second baseman. And, does he find a little bit more power? But, he can really, really hit. The idea Lyle and I have kicked around here. And, it's been good to get some outside evaluation on this.

[00:39:03] Is that, I feel like the way the Mariners second base position is. You know, going down the stretch of the season. You would imagine at this point. If they're going to bring Cole up. He's struggled more against lefties than the minors. They have a young right-handed second baseman in Ryan Bliss. Does it benefit them? Let me frame it this way. Does it benefit the team enough to consider platooning them? Or, is that too much of a disservice to the development of the prospects.

[00:39:30] To hinder them as platoon players. In their peak development years. When they're at the big league level. Yeah, I mean. You probably don't want to do that. I mean. Bliss is a little bit older. Bliss is 25. And, like. That might be Bliss's best role. Like, more of a platoon guy than a tributive player. But, with Cole. Like, won't be 22 until the end of July. It's tough. I mean. I honestly think. What you do this year might be different than what you do next year also.

[00:40:01] That. Look. If the Mariners are contending. And, they're trying to win every game. And, make the playoffs. And, see how far they can go. Then, yeah. Maybe you say. You know what? Like. Cole would be our best shortstop against righties. But, we're going to sit him against a lot of lefties. And, then. You know. Maybe next year. You expand his role. But, I think a lot of. Like. I don't think you want to platoon. A guy you think is going to be an everyday player in the long run. When he gets to the big leagues. I mean. He does help that he's left handed. So, he would get the majority of the at-bats. But, again.

[00:40:31] If you're trying to win. And, it's a tight race. Whether it's for the ALS. Or, the wild card. Then, I think. Then, I think. You would consider it perhaps. Yeah. And, that was kind of the idea we've thrown around. It's not that long term. We think Cole would be a platoon second baseman. It was more the idea of. In year one. If he comes up. This year. Which people expect him to. And, balancing the idea of. Giving yourself the best chance to win with him up. But, also not hindering his development. And, like. Continuing to let him hit lefties. At least to some extent.

[00:41:00] That idea. Right. Yeah. If we just keep going down this list. I feel like Harry Ford is a guy that. Well, he's been on the list a long time. Feels like he. Feels like in some aspects. Maybe he's lost a little bit of that steam. But, then you pair it with. Having a really good spring over the first few weeks here. Is. What is the expectation for Harry Ford? Especially with a catcher that's. You know. Pretty. Stamped in terms of a guy that's in front of him. Yeah. I mean. I think that's the tougher thing.

[00:41:30] For Harry. I mean. I don't think that Harry is. I agree with you that I feel like. He's not. As. Highly touted. Or gets mentioned quite as much as he did. Maybe a year or two ago. And, I think that's more just because. There are a lot more hitters in the system now. There was a time where he was the best position prospect. I guess. You know. After Julio graduated. You look to Harry Ford. And, now they've added all these guys in the last couple years. I don't know that he's really a markedly different player than we thought he was. I mean. He's still a chance to be.

[00:41:59] I think a pretty good offensive player for a catcher. You know. Who can. You know. And, he's got 20 plus home run power. And, he can really run for a catcher. I feel like the defense is still a work in progress. But, it's. You know. It gets better. Like. I don't see a reason he can't be an average catcher with an average arm. I mean. He's still just 22 years old. But, like you said. I mean. You got Cal Raleigh there.

[00:42:28] Who's one of the best catchers in the big leagues. I mean. I do think. And, Harry has played some more outfield. You know. Last year. That we all know he's a quality athlete. And, there was always a question like. Do you want him to catch. And, lose some of that athleticism. Or, would you rather have him play. You know. Like the Craig Biggio type of question. You know. I'm not putting Harry in the Hall of Fame quite yet. But. You know. If Cal's there. You know. Maybe Harry Ford. You know. Catches 50 or 60 games. And, Cal Raleigh catches 100 games.

[00:42:58] And, then. You know. Gets 20 or 30 games at DH. And, Harry. Splits his time between catcher and left field. Depending on what the team looks like it. But, yeah. Like I said. I think he's still kind of the same quality prospect. It's just. There's more hitting prospects in the system. So, he doesn't stand out quite as much. How about one of the final position guys we'll talk about here. In Johnny Farmello. I was really disappointed when he got hurt this last year.

[00:43:25] Because, I felt like his trajectory was going up like this. I see. And, I know people around New York really, really like what Johnny has to offer. How much does that injury impact his evaluation? Because, you have him. He's still top 100 prospect. He's number 95. But, it feels a little bit tougher to get a read on him on a national level. No. It is. I mean. I think we're going to have to see what he looks like when he comes back. You know. He tore his ACL in his right knee. You know. Speed was his best tool. I mean. ACL tears get repaired now.

[00:43:55] So, there's no reason to think he won't come back. And, have the speed he did. I mean. But, you want to see it. But, no. He was. It did seem like his trajectory is rising. And, you know. While he can really run. He's better. There's a lot of guys who can really run who don't do a whole lot else well. And, I think he's got a chance to hit for a decent average. 15 to 20 homers. Play center field. You know. The speed is definitely the best tool. But, he can do a little bit of everything, honestly.

[00:44:24] So, very curious to see him. You hope he returns to health soon. And, then see where he goes from there. Okay. Let's tee you up. Because, you were talking about it. What makes you such a big Ryan Sloan fan? Because, there's a million reasons to be one. But, we want to hear from you. Yeah. No. I mean. I'd say all of the above. I mean. Like. Again. I'm not Mr. Comp. But, like the comp that came up a couple times last year. It was more like. This is kind of what it looked like at the same stage. Nobody's saying he's going to be this guy.

[00:44:54] But, I mean. It's kind of a Garrett Cole look. To him. Coming out of high school. I mean. He's already 6'5", 220. He's sturdy. And, you know. Like. You think 6'5", 220. High schooler. It's going to be this guy who throws hard. And, it's all over the place. But, I mean. There's polish to go with this stuff too. I mean. You know. Fastball sits around. 94. 95. 95. He shows the ability to manipulate it. And, altered shape. He's got a good feel for a slider. Which is probably his worst pitch. But, it's a solid pitch.

[00:45:24] It's got two plane depth when it's on. It's got some horizontal action. He's got really good feel for a changeup. He throws strikes. Repeats his delivery. He's durable. I mean. It's a pretty complete. A pretty complete package. I think that was a great pick for the Mariners in the second round last year. I want to ask you about one more of the really young guys. And, that's Michael Arroyo. I do feel like. I do feel like he's being underrated a little bit almost. Because. How many. I'd ask you. Jim. How many.

[00:45:53] How many 19 year olds. Are putting up a WRC plus of 148. Not many. Doing it as a middle infielder who hit 23. Three homers and stole a team bases. I mean. I think the reason. He flies a little under the radar. Is. You know. Is his size. Like he's listed at 510. 160. I'd probably take. The slight under on the 510. And the over. On the 160. And so. Like. You have that kind of stocky.

[00:46:23] Infielder. I mean. The comparison I think that makes. That gets made with him sometimes. Is Howie Kendrick. Is kind of the patron saint of the. The stocky. Infielder. With good. Back to ball skills. Who swings from the. Right side of the plate. But I do like him. I like. Like. I think. I think. Most of the value. Will come from what he does. Offensively. Like he's got a chance to hit for average. And hit for power. But. I think the rest of his game. Is average. And like.

[00:46:53] Sometimes it sounds like a pejorative. But like. If you're major league average. That's pretty good. I do think he's a second baseman. I don't think he's really a big league shortstop. But I do think he can hit. You know. He's super young. Like you said. He'll be. He was 19 last year. Had a really good year. He'll be 20 all this year. You know. The interesting thing will just be. You know. How. And again. They don't have to worry about it today. But with Emerson. And Young. And Celestin. And Michael Arroyo. You know. All of whom. They probably don't have to worry about it this year.

[00:47:22] Cole Young may come up. But then next year. Emerson and Arroyo could be pushing for it. And Celestin will be on their heels. You know. How do they. Manage the infield of the future. With all these guys. It's going to be super interesting. I mean. Especially because the Mariners. Do have some space. That feels like will be available. On their. On their infield. At some point in the next couple years. But paired with. How many guys make it. How many guys continue the trajectory. What happens in trades. Yeah. It's all going to be. It's all going to be fascinating.

[00:47:53] Because you're right. They have a ton of guys. Knocking on the door here. One infielder. Or former infielder. I should say. That's now an outfielder. And we are a huge fan of. On this podcast. Is Ty Pete. Who had a really good. Spring breakout game. And I know you talked about. You've had a blast. Watching all these breakout games. He stole the show. And the Mariners won. Is it fair to believe. That he's really going to take. A jump forward again. Here in 2025. Yeah. I think he really could. Because I mean. This was a guy. He was a two-ed player. In high school also.

[00:48:22] And guys kind of liked him. A little bit more. I should say a little bit more. Liked him as a right-handed pitcher. As well. And then he got hurt. On the showcase circuit. I don't even know if he pitched. As a senior. It was kind of nebulous. But I mean. I do think these guys. Who play two ways as amateurs. Tend to have more room for growth. Than comparable players. With the same age and experience. In pro ball. Just because he hasn't focused. On hitting full time. Until the last couple years. And yes. I mean. Does he need to cut down. On the strikeouts?

[00:48:52] He does. He struck out 162 times last year. But he had 42 extra bases. 45 steals. And 115 games. As an 18 year old. Last year. He didn't turn 19. Till the middle of August. Like. He was one of the younger players. In that draft. Super talented. I mean. I know you guys have seen him. His bat speed is crazy. Like. There's a lot of power in there. You like to get a little bit more. Consistent at the plate. But yeah. He would be. I don't know. Like. If it's a fair. You know.

[00:49:21] Pick to click. Or sleeper. Because he was the 30th overall. Picking the draft two years ago. And he had a. He didn't have a bad year at all. Last year. But I. I think. Like. Would it shock me. If he was a top 100 prospect. At some point this year. It would not. Guys loved him in high school. Last one for me Jim. Who's someone we haven't mentioned. That you're high on. You know who. I'm interested in. I think he had. I think he had a setback. Did Teddy McGraw get banged up a little bit. In spring training. Or am I imagining that?

[00:49:52] That is a good question. He hasn't thrown in any big league games. He got back into pitching. Summertime of last year. From the injury. But. Yeah. He's somebody we didn't hear that much about. Let me look. Because it's like I know. It's like. I'm trying to look at my notes here real quick. Which makes for a scintillating podcast. As I shuffle papers. On my end. But. As well. As you're looking. Just to give people some context. In case they don't know the name Teddy McGraw. Just for everybody listening.

[00:50:22] Wake Forest. Had a chance to be a first rounder. Mariners took him in the third round. Has battled through a couple of Tommy John surgeries. But. Still has a really live arm. When he's helping. Yeah. I found my notes. He's not hurt. But they're bringing him back slowly. Yeah. He had two Tommy Johns. He had one in high school. He looked like he was trending toward the first round. In 2023. He was on that Wake Forest team. That lost in the semifinals of the World Series. To LSU. And he blew out in their squad. Right before the season started. But yeah. He's a guy.

[00:50:52] Who I think. Because he hasn't pitched a whole lot. Doesn't get. Doesn't get mentioned. Just because guys haven't seen him. You know. He pitched. Nine innings at Modesto last year. He's interesting. Because I do think it's a first round arm. Like. Like he'd be one. And then. Like. I think people kind of viewed this guy. As more of a. Signability pick. To help. Afford Ryan Sloan. When they took Hunter Crinton in the third round. And signed him for $50,000. And yes. The money was a factor. And he was older. He turned 24 in October.

[00:51:23] But like. It's legit. Stuff. Like. His fastball. Sits at 97. 98. It's a. He's got a. A tight. Upper 80s slider. And I do think. Like. I don't think he's going to be a superstar. But I do think he's a chance to pitch in the Mariners. Bullpen at some point this year. Well. And people thought McGraw. At one point before the injuries. Had a chance to get drafted. Potentially over Rhett Lauder. Who went in the top 10. I'm not. I'm not going to go quite that high. But like. Like. Like. It was kind of like.

[00:51:51] It was the parallel to LSU. Where they had. Grant Taylor blew out. Like. Almost the same time of year. And he's on the same staff. With Paul Skeens. Okay. You'll get some people will be like. Oh. Grant Taylor is better than Paul Skeens in fall ball. That's not true. Grant Taylor was really good. But Paul Skeens was showing signs. That he was going to be Paul Skeens. In fall ball. And it was the same thing. Like. Like. Grant Lauder. Was going to go really really good. Like. Grant Lauder was going to be a top 15 pick. And Teddy McGraw was more. Like. If he went in the first round. Probably when you was snuck into the 20s. Gotcha. At that point. Like. He's probably got.

[00:52:21] You know. You could say. In terms of just pure stuff. Teddy McGraw probably has. Nastier stuff. But. You know. Rhett has. You know. At least. A grade and a half. Better control. Fair. And for those who don't know that reference. Lauder and McGraw were college teammates. At Lake Forest. On that. On that college world series team. So yeah. Jim. This is always fun. Always love talking prospects with you. You do it as well as anybody in the business. And have forever now. Always enjoy talking with you. Enjoyed catching up at spring training with you.

[00:52:50] And hope to see you down the road soon. No. I hope to see both of you guys. That was like a nice bonus. As I staggered into Peoria. Like. What was it? 730 in the morning. Because we had very early call times. Might have been a little bit earlier. And enjoyed talking baseball with you guys. So. Yeah. It was. That was a lot of fun. We had to get you guys to the fall league. Do you guys ever go to the fall league? We haven't been yet. We didn't school. Yeah. We didn't school as like students. We haven't done it as a podcast yet. Yeah. That'd be really fun though. Yeah. You should. I mean.

[00:53:19] The mayor's usually sent us pretty good. Like. Pretty good players too. So. Right. You should. We will get Ty Pete. I feel like Ty Pete might be a good fall league candidate. This year. Sign us right up. Teddy McGraw. Getting some more innings. We'll see some of these guys. But. Yeah. You'll have to check that out at some point. That'd be great. Thanks Jim. Well thanks for having me.

[00:54:05] Hope you guys enjoyed that conversation with Jim. Exciting. And to have. One of the. Just absolute legends in the business. Break it all down for us. As he does at the start of every season. And Jim Callis. It's great. We always appreciate the time. And we always love his insight. So. Hope you guys enjoyed. That'll just about wrap up this edition of the Marine Layer Podcast. You guys know the drill. You want to listen to the full form podcast. You can do so wherever you get your audio pods. Make sure to download. Make sure to rate and review. Please leave a five stars. If you're going to leave a review. It really does help. Like. Comment. Subscribe.

[00:54:35] Over on YouTube. Go check out our Patreon. If you haven't already. We're rolling that out as time goes along. And follow us everywhere on social media. At Marine Layer Pod. Oh. I didn't plug it at the start. We did a spring training vlog. You guys. Go check that out too. It was a blast. So we take you guys behind the scenes of everything we did. So. Let us know what you think of it. Because we really enjoy making those. So go check it out. That's TJ. I'm Lyle. As always we thank you guys for tuning in. We'll talk to you soon.